Grey County Committee Meeting Transcript — March 5, 2026

00:00:00 SPEAKER_578: And

00:00:02 SPEAKER_328: all right we're good to go Perfect Well good morning everyone and welcome to the first agricultural advisory meeting for 2026 I just wanted to take a quick moment to welcome the newest appointed committee member Emily McKeag which I know a

00:00:16 SPEAKER_328: lot of you are familiar with her already Emily has replaced Lori Smith's appointed spot with her recent retirement so I just wanted to take a moment to welcome her

00:00:25 SPEAKER_328: And the first item of business today is the election of the chair and the vice chair So these positions will run for the remainder of the 2026 council term So that includes this meeting and one more meeting in June So

00:00:40 SPEAKER_328: to begin we'll start with the election for the chair Are there any nominations to start

00:00:53 SPEAKER_328: Any nominations for chair

00:00:56 SPEAKER_579: And clerk clerk's staff office is Sorry but I don't see I don't see everybody on the screen and nothing wrong with you being on the screen but I just see a couple of people there So

00:01:10 SPEAKER_579: if you allow me to just

00:01:14 SPEAKER_579: and I I've given this some thought and it doesn't just an idea

00:01:20 SPEAKER_579: but I'll elect or I'll nominate Blair Freeman

00:01:27 SPEAKER_579: Would anyone like to second that motion

00:01:33 SPEAKER_328: Councillor Mackie

00:01:38 SPEAKER_328: And Member Freeman do you wish to have your name stand as chair of the Agricultural Advisory Committee

00:01:49 SPEAKER_580: Sorry what's the um for this meeting and next meeting or what are you asking here That's right Yeah So it'll be for this meeting and the next one And clerk staff is more than happy and willing to help you move

00:02:03 SPEAKER_580: those meetings along if needed Okay Yeah No I just have a a one year old crawling over me right now so I'm not sure I can

00:02:09 SPEAKER_580: be overly helpful today But I don't mind doing the next meeting But it's up to you

00:02:15 SPEAKER_328: We we can we can try and see if anyone else would like to pose a chair for the committee if Blair is maybe not able to for this one

00:02:29 SPEAKER_580: I'm happy to do the next one I'm just I'm not sure I can do this one right now

00:02:35 SPEAKER_328: Would anyone like to make another motion for chair for the committee

00:02:42 SPEAKER_579: Well I don't want to be too bold but I always like to move things along So Paul McLean the Paul McLean he's been smiling all along and I thought maybe

00:02:53 SPEAKER_579: it's not

00:02:55 SPEAKER_579: a hard job to to share this meeting but whatever So anyways I've nominated too Now I'm going to drink the rest of my tea And

00:03:05 Paul Mcqueen: would someone like I'll decline but I was going to nominate

00:03:10 Paul Mcqueen: Keith Keith Reed

00:03:16 SPEAKER_328: Would someone like to make a a motion to second that

00:03:20 SPEAKER_579: I'll support the motion Yes Oh sorry Shirley Derry I see she is has her hands up so it's fine

00:03:27 SPEAKER_328: Okay we'll take Councillor Keaveny on that one Member Reid would you like to have your name stand as chair of the Agricultural Advisory Committee

00:03:40 SPEAKER_581: I also like to keep a moving meeting meeting carrying on but I wish to decline this morning I have to leave early so I apologize but I'm not able to chair today

00:03:54 SPEAKER_328: No problem All right let's start from the top again Would someone like to make a motion to be to move a motion to elect a chair for the the committee for this meeting and for one more in June Councillor Kivney

00:04:10 SPEAKER_415: Thank you Good morning everyone I would like to nominate Emily recognizing that we have such a fabulous Chair chair and Laurie and to allow Emily to have succession to that position I would nominate Emily this morning

00:04:27 SPEAKER_328: Would someone like to make them I'll second Second that Sorry who was that That was Brenda Carrie Dalvin Oh Carrie thank you Carrie

00:04:41 SPEAKER_328: And Emily would you like to have your name stand as chair of the Agricultural Advisory Committee

00:04:48 Grant Pringle: I am feeling a little bit too new to this and

00:04:52 Grant Pringle: having not attended a meeting I'm going to decline I would motion Simon Dubur to chair the meeting though

00:05:00 Grant Pringle: Thank you

00:05:03 Grant Pringle: Would someone like to second that motion

00:05:07 Grant Pringle: Councillor McQueen

00:05:11 SPEAKER_328: Simon would you like to have your name stand as chair of the Agricultural Advisory Committee I love you allowing me to drink my tea in the meantime I can do that just for the sake

00:05:20 SPEAKER_328: of

00:05:23 SPEAKER_328: That's great And can we have a motion to close nominations

00:05:30 SPEAKER_328: Councillor Milne

00:05:34 SPEAKER_328: All right So Simon Dubois you are acclaimed as chair of the Agricultural Advisory Committee for the remainder of 2026 So next I'll open the floor up for nominations for a vice chair of the committee Are there any nominations

00:05:51 SPEAKER_328: Nominations for vice chair Councillor Kivney

00:05:56 SPEAKER_415: I would nominate Gail Ardell as vice chair with her experience from the TBMA committee

00:06:04 SPEAKER_415: And can I get a seconder for that motion

00:06:08 SPEAKER_415: Warren Matrasovs

00:06:12 SPEAKER_328: And Gail would you like to have your name stand as vice chair of the committee for the remainder of 2026

00:06:21 SPEAKER_328: Sorry Gail you're just on mute There

00:06:27 SPEAKER_582: trying to run two computers here I just returned from a trip so I'm a little tired It was a long night Yes I'll let it stand for vice chair Thank you Perfect Thank you And can I have a nomination to

00:06:41 SPEAKER_582: close votes

00:06:44 SPEAKER_328: Councillor McQueen

00:06:47 SPEAKER_328: Okay And Member Gale Ardeal you are acclaimed as vice chair for the remainder of 2026

00:06:54 SPEAKER_328: And now Simon

00:06:56 SPEAKER_328: if you'd like to go ahead and chair the remainder of the meeting just let me know if you need any help with anything So we're first going to have a delegation from Steve Duff and then after that we'll move into

00:07:09 SPEAKER_328: items for direction and discussion And just item five B and five C need a mover and a seconder

00:07:15 SPEAKER_583: So you will guide me or are you going to put a agenda on the screen or from time to time or I can do that for you That's no problem Oh but it is now a matter of introducing Steve Duff

00:07:26 SPEAKER_583: as the speaker

00:07:28 SPEAKER_579: Yes please And I will gladly do that I only like to introduce Steve Duff He is a

00:07:34 SPEAKER_579: agriculture and economic Adviser for OMAFRA and Steve and I go back a long ways and I fully admire his knowledge about agriculture and agricultural trade And it's a pleasure to you Dan Steve

00:07:50 SPEAKER_584: Thank you very much Simon

00:07:52 SPEAKER_584: Simon and I have

00:07:54 SPEAKER_584: known each other for a long time It's been a great pleasure and thank you for having me here today I'm going to try to be brief What I'm going to do is share my screen

00:08:04 SPEAKER_584: and And I'm going to take you through a presentation that you

00:08:09 SPEAKER_584: just bear with

00:08:13 SPEAKER_584: me Trying to find my

00:08:20 SPEAKER_584: Sorry there we go

00:08:26 SPEAKER_584: Everybody see that Okay

00:08:30 SPEAKER_584: Put it on full screen mode

00:08:35 SPEAKER_584: How's that Can everybody see That looks good Yep Okay thank you So this is a presentation that I do pretty regularly around the province in different forms We don't have a ton of time today What I want to try to

00:08:48 SPEAKER_584: do is talk a little bit about the agrifood sector in general in the province and some of the things that we are trying to accomplish and think about and some of the trends we're seeing and how Grey County at a

00:09:01 SPEAKER_584: level fits into that This is the type of thing Quite frankly I'd be more than happy to come back to your committee to point Likely in person might be better if you do any of those But to go through this

00:09:11 SPEAKER_584: in much more detail this is something that you know can take at least an hour or more And you kind of dig into the numbers in a different way And this is just a smattering of it Everything that's in this

00:09:21 SPEAKER_584: deck is in our ministry statistics site under what we call county profiles So you can get this for Grey County as well as all of the municipalities within Grey or every other part Part of the province so we'll get into

00:09:33 SPEAKER_584: that What I wanted to do was just touch briefly on what's called Grow Ontario which is effectively the ministry and the provincial government strategy to try to expand agricultural production in the province I'm not going to go into too much

00:09:45 SPEAKER_584: detail but kind of contextualize it a little bit

00:09:49 SPEAKER_584: So again agrifood is a really important part obviously of the Canadian economy You know you guys probably understand that better than most being part of an advisory committee this is a key part of messaging that we have as a ministry

00:10:03 SPEAKER_584: across the province and across Canada Because it not everybody really understands this you know And so you know when we're talking you know fiftyone billion in GDP we're six percent of the provincial GDP from farm to fork We're almost eleven

00:10:17 SPEAKER_584: percent of provincial employment farm to fork You know we're innovative We're internationally focused We're internationally competitive All of these kinds of things thingsit's really significant right You've got thousands of people employed all over the place

00:10:33 SPEAKER_584: There's a significant footprint in the industry obviously outside of the major urban centers which is also a really key and crucial part to this et cetera And so these are really important things And again if we had more time at

00:10:47 SPEAKER_584: a point this is the type of thing where I take this diagram for example and I break it down for Gray County or again you know in our Thumborland We did some stuff recently for Cochrane District Like we can do

00:10:59 SPEAKER_584: it for everybody businesses employment that kind of stuff

00:11:04 SPEAKER_584: One of the challenges that we're facing however and the census of agriculture of which I'm probably Canada's biggest proponent of it both as a government guy and as a farmer and that's going to be measured here in May again 2026

00:11:17 SPEAKER_584: It'll be out in 2027 in terms of the information This shows basically the census area of farms on active farms over the last 150 years or so This is back to the very first census at the provincial level in Ontario

00:11:32 SPEAKER_584: in 1871 through to the most recent one 2021 This is active land on farms This is not all the land that we can farm I'll come back to that in second But this is what's on active farms The dark blue

00:11:43 SPEAKER_584: line is the total farming area You guys in Grey County know that a lot of land on farms is either not considered workable or it's basically in a state of sort of transition and you certainly see that in your area

00:11:55 SPEAKER_584: Bruce County I farm up that way a bit and you know the the transition in pastureland etc is reflected in that decline in that dark blue line and the light blue line That's the land that we have in crops That

00:12:09 SPEAKER_584: acreage has not really changed in the last 150 years or so It peaked during World War One at about 10 million acres It's not the same acres right You know the Pearson Airport was once In that blue line and it

00:12:22 SPEAKER_584: is no longer in that blue line but we've been able to maintain that production But as you can see on the righthand side those two bars are coming together and you know we'll see what the next census does But they're

00:12:31 SPEAKER_584: going to be together even further and that challenge is that on active farms there's less land across the province and again this varies by area to turn into active land And I'll come back to that a bit And the line

00:12:44 SPEAKER_584: on there is the population The population may have slowed down a little bit but it continues to grow and so we're feeding this larger population And so how have we dealt with this So this shows the last 25 years but

00:12:56 SPEAKER_584: this is basically receipts or sales at the farm level for livestock and crops in the province

00:13:02 SPEAKER_584: and then adjusted for price changes In other words we're trying to take out the impact of price and look at well how much have we been able to produce more of Again it's complicated because we produce again over 200 different

00:13:12 SPEAKER_584: commodities in Ontario but those lines are moving up pretty rapidly 57 in last 25 Years and expected to continue to grow Again recognizing that through this twentyfive period the land and crops on farms in this province was roughly nine million

00:13:27 SPEAKER_584: acres every year Again not the same acres but it's this idea of we're becoming considerably more productive and I'll come back to why that's important

00:13:37 SPEAKER_584: One of the things again that we're working pretty heavily on and you're probably aware of this and at a municipal level like an organization like this you'll have a better appreciation for some Some of the differences in data but one

00:13:49 SPEAKER_584: of the things we've worked on for quite some time is the relationship with municipal property assessment MPAK and the reason that's important is that data that MPAK has takes you down to the local level It takes you down to a

00:14:00 SPEAKER_584: roll number level and that roll number level excuse me can be defined in a bunch of different ways But one of the one of the key things about MPAK data in particular the farm codes the 200 codes as they're often

00:14:13 SPEAKER_584: referred to is that once a piece of land is actively farmed and not ccessed by from an agri impact point of view and you know you can build in your FBR exception to it can talk about that later if you

00:14:24 SPEAKER_584: want but for the most part unless that land is paved over unless it becomes Pearson Airport as an example it stays as a two hundred code for forever even if it's not actively farmed And the data here this is at

00:14:36 SPEAKER_584: a provincial level I'll get into some grade county stuff in a second It basically has continued to show that over time across Ontario there is More land out there that was once actively farms Now again it's there's different states of

00:14:48 SPEAKER_584: farms That workable percentage I'll come back to that is important But

00:14:52 SPEAKER_584: in combination with climate change etc this is something that's significant from the perspective of how do we try to provide incentives etc and Grow Ontario might be part of that to keep that land in production So Grow Ontario really is

00:15:06 SPEAKER_584: about strengthening the system It's got a number of objectives within it which are geared to increasing Increasing agricultural production increasing local food consumption It's got stuff in there with respect to growing food processing growing exports etc All of which are

00:15:23 SPEAKER_584: complemented by this idea of becoming more productive at the farm level and better utilizing the land we have available to us either that which is actively used right now or that which we are not actively using So extending that into

00:15:36 SPEAKER_584: Gray County specifically

00:15:39 SPEAKER_584: this is something that we do to try to help municipalities and local organizations try to conceptualize or articulate the importance of agrifood within their community and so again we use a combination of the census of agriculture data because it's truly

00:15:53 SPEAKER_584: the only time that we get down to a municipal level or a township or even county level in the kind of detail that we like to have in this sector We do again we have the luxury of a lot of

00:16:03 SPEAKER_584: good data in agrifood and I think sometimes we don't fully appreciate that So I'll read you the story again This Is all you'll notice on every slide There's a source for it You can go in and if you want to

00:16:12 SPEAKER_584: look at another county like you know I farm in Northumberland and Bruce County so I can I can go in and look at Northumberland or Bruce numbers to the same degree So in 2021 we had around 2200 active farms in

00:16:24 SPEAKER_584: Gray County and they generated around 560 million dollars in farm sales Cattle grains and oil seeds and dairy were the top three commodities

00:16:33 SPEAKER_584: That and this is the real sort of key thing So what we try to do is articulate how That that farm level agriculture agricultural production at a local level translates and generates GDP gross domestic product value added across the whole

00:16:45 SPEAKER_584: province right Like so you know my corn that I'm growing in Northumberland it gets sold outside of Northumberland so it's spread across economic impact through the whole province The same with the beef cattle that would be produced in Grey County

00:16:56 SPEAKER_584: you know they're going to Cartmel and Duffclyde or somewhere etc

00:17:01 SPEAKER_584: And so that 558 million dollars in farm cash sales on Great County farms supported about 12 billion in GDP through the value chain farm level input level wholesale food manufacturing distribution retail food

00:17:17 SPEAKER_584: service etc It's this idea of what does it all sort of flow through and that also supported across the province over 18000 people That's these are significant numbers and again a lot of jurisdictions I find you know want to know

00:17:31 SPEAKER_584: oh we're the largest etc that kind of thing Everybody's got a big impact Every Everybody is contributing to that first graph I showed and that's really important You're never too small in that contribution in my opinion

00:17:42 SPEAKER_584: And so within Gray County the 2178 farms had 3020 farm operators So again you know as an example on our farm my wife and I are considered the farm operators We're one farm in Northumberland but we're two operators as farm

00:17:56 SPEAKER_584: operators go They're actively farming 448 That should be 48000 acres roughly in total farm area within Gray County and within the sector specifically again recognizing that there's you know you're bringing food in all this kind of stuff So this idea

00:18:10 SPEAKER_584: of how people are employed is a little bit different within the community versus across the province But there's around sixty six hundred people working in Grey County in the agrifood sector Again from farm to fork and that's supporting about twenty

00:18:23 SPEAKER_584: two hundred different local businesses And again I can go into great detail on this in terms of how many vets there are and how many input suppliers Those are all really Important important things to dig into what's going on in

00:18:34 SPEAKER_584: the local area Again happy to do that When we increase farm sales in Grey County every additional dollar of farm sales that we create

00:18:43 SPEAKER_584: is basically going to increase GDP by about two dollars and nineteen cents So there's significant contribution there Every additional acre of land and crops increases our GDP by forty one hundred And these are two really important numbers to come back

00:18:56 SPEAKER_584: to in a second with respect to that idea of Grow Ontario

00:19:00 SPEAKER_584: So you know as you guys know right We are losing more farms We are losing actively farmland That that first graph is clear Primary ag and food processing in particular are two productivitybased industries So the and this is not unique

00:19:15 SPEAKER_584: to Ontario It's Canada international US And so the reality is that if you're not losing farms if they're not becoming incrementally bigger etc you're likely not getting more efficient Now there is you know there is limitations to that there are

00:19:29 SPEAKER_584: reasons why you don't want to lose farms or why there'd be reasons why you want to structurally support farms through a crisis like BSE or the hog crisis in '98 those kinds of things But over time farm size processor size

00:19:41 SPEAKER_584: is going to get bigger It's it's a necessity in terms of improving productivity But the total farm area in Grey County fell quite a bit more on the last census So from 2016 to 21 that it did at the provincial

00:19:56 SPEAKER_584: level Now again total farm area is a bit of a tricky one because total farm area again a

00:20:03 SPEAKER_584: lot of times especially in areas I would say a place like Gray County or you know where we farm in Northumberland is a little bit similar A lot of farms when they transition out for example with retirement etc the total

00:20:14 SPEAKER_584: farm area ends up

00:20:17 SPEAKER_584: you know your total farm area and then you've got your land and crops The land and crops will oftentimes be rented out in many cases That's what goes back into the census and then you lose the nonworkable part of that

00:20:27 SPEAKER_584: farm and that total farm area That I'll come back to that in a minute But that's one of the more important things or pieces of that puzzle Farm area fell example as well But land and crops also fell a little

00:20:41 SPEAKER_584: bit faster Again land and crops at the provincial level increased 03

00:20:45 SPEAKER_584: Again why Well because we've been trying to gradually transition in certain areas of the province Again you can see it like you know in my farm as an example We've increased the land and crops in our farm significantly since 2006

00:20:58 SPEAKER_584: when we bought the farm from my motherinlaw through removing fence bottoms and a whole bunch of different things The total you know the total area on our roll numbers hasn't changed but what we can do with that land has increased

00:21:08 SPEAKER_584: significantly Come back to that in a second The other thing about Gray County is that it's a very selfsufficient area in terms of food production which goes to this idea of effectively you're a net exporter you're providing product all across

00:21:22 SPEAKER_584: the province and that's strength There's a lot of strength in that for a variety of reasons including that because you're producing a wide variety of things it opens up the opportunity for people to see more opportunity in the things that

00:21:35 SPEAKER_584: they do and to be able to expand into a lot of different things Right So you're producing this data again is within that and the idea here is to say well how much are we producing in the area relative to

00:21:44 SPEAKER_584: how much do we think local people based on our population in Great County would consume So to give an example Now this is an example where things have declined but it also creates opportunity for others The asparagus line in there

00:21:57 SPEAKER_584: you know in 2016 the amount of asparagus that was grown at

00:22:02 SPEAKER_584: least in terms of a commercial sense on farms

00:22:05 SPEAKER_584: amounted to about 98 of what we would calculate as the amount the population within Gray County would consume That number declined to 28 in 2021 Again there can often be structural reasons within that frost kill that type of thing However

00:22:19 SPEAKER_584: it goes to the idea that there's maybe opportunity for somebody with smaller landholdings or existing farms to grow and you kind of go down the list You get into beef cattle you know Obviously you're producing way above your weight livestock

00:22:31 SPEAKER_584: in particular not unexpected But it goes to the strength of the area and also again recognizing that in pretty well every commodity we produce in this province there's room to produce more to displace imports because we're importing everything right So

00:22:46 SPEAKER_584: the degree to which that creates an opportunity especially in a bigger area like Grey County where there's a wide variety of production where there's efficient production you've got some scale It goes to this idea of greater opportunity

00:22:58 SPEAKER_584: but again it comes at a cost right Farmland values rental rates are not cheap They're going up quite significantly You know you're at or about the provincial average basically from both a rental rate and a farmland value point of view

00:23:13 SPEAKER_584: You know this isn't It's clearly not Stratford or Woodstock where you know I heard of a guy the other day paid sixty three thousand dollars for an acre in and around Stratford So you know sometimes you wonder about the math

00:23:24 SPEAKER_584: on that However again prices have went up land values have went up in an area like Gray County where you've got

00:23:31 SPEAKER_584: basically a lot of transition You've got a lot of sort of smaller acres In some circumstances you guys can clearly see as well as I can non farm owners that kind of thing coming in And one of the things that

00:23:42 SPEAKER_584: where that is a big thing for me and I've been Doing doing some work in Peterborough County with a group called Farms at Work is helping nonfarm landowners understand the value of letting farmers use their land We've been doing some

00:23:54 SPEAKER_584: mailings to people We've been doing some a seminar recently where we had fifty nonfarm nonfarmer landowners come in and learn about what the benefits of having a farmer use their property would be Be happy to do that on a oneoff

00:24:07 SPEAKER_584: with Gray County and I know Farms at Work would be happy to talk to you guys as well

00:24:12 SPEAKER_584: The other aspect is that with climate Change change things are changing right And and we all know this And there's a variety of things that come with that But one of the more significant things in certain regions of the province

00:24:23 SPEAKER_584: and I would say Grey County is one of them We can see it if you drive up the Bruce What we've been able to produce in that region as time has went by you know the combination of a bit warmer

00:24:34 SPEAKER_584: climate a little bit more moisture at key times often and certainly a longer growing period I you know shorter or earlier last frost and a much earlier last frost and a much later last frost and that that's a big deal

00:24:49 SPEAKER_584: and so this area basically the Canadian climate atlas and there's a lot of really interesting things in there if you're interested would suggest that up through Owen Sound in the next 50 years the temperature the climate etc starts to get

00:25:02 SPEAKER_584: very close to what Chatham has been for the last 50 Now again that does come with some variability and sometimes the carrying capacity of heavier land in particular Is not really suited for that However these do create opportunities from a

00:25:15 SPEAKER_584: land use perspective especially from my perspective in smaller landholdings where you have certain aspects of that

00:25:22 SPEAKER_584: So in terms of underutilized farmland which is really from my perspective one of the key things to think about And again the numbers are you know we can discuss and debate about the numbers etc But the concept is pretty clear

00:25:35 SPEAKER_584: And everybody I think who farms can drive around communities and see this and I I see this a lot I could talk about just about every part of the province if you wanted to hear me talk about where I think

00:25:44 SPEAKER_584: there's opportunity But in Grey County there's about eighty eight hundred twenty thousand acres that are assessed as farming by impact

00:25:53 SPEAKER_584: So again a property because it's assessed by impact does not mean it has it is currently farmed And again the data that you we would link to the farm business registration number will give us a look into this as does

00:26:05 SPEAKER_584: the census data Two thousand twenty one there There was again four hundred and forty fortyeight thousand acres roughly of farmed land according to the census So the difference there is land that was once farmed and is not actively farmed now

00:26:18 SPEAKER_584: Now it might be in various states etc of use but it is still two hundred coded Now again remembering that farmland assessment does not necessarily mean farmland zoning I grow about a thousand acres of corn and soybeans in Northumberland Ontario

00:26:34 SPEAKER_584: and

00:26:35 SPEAKER_584: outside of I think it's about 180 acres All of that is zone rural It's not zone primag and so again there's multiuse on that So it's assessed from a farming point of view but it doesn't mean I have to farm

00:26:49 SPEAKER_584: it right And so that that's one of the or that farming is the its only use So that's also something My guess is that that's somewhat true in certain parts of Gray County as well but I don't know that specifically

00:27:01 SPEAKER_584: However what I do know is that on the census forms etc about 35 percent of the total farm area on any active Grey County farm is considered rough and managed pasture woodlands and wetlands So again that goes back to that

00:27:14 SPEAKER_584: very first graph where the thing is falling over time The the debate then is that thirtyfive percent convertible

00:27:22 SPEAKER_584: How much of that is pasture for example that could be converted into other uses How much of it is rough land that's not being pasture that could be pasture That's actually a pretty big one across Ontario which people tend not

00:27:32 SPEAKER_584: to Think about because pasturing is a real opportunity in this province in ways I think that should be utilized And then ultimately how much is woodland and wetlands that either we can't convert or don't want to convert But there's still

00:27:43 SPEAKER_584: use within that silviculture maple syrup and a variety of different things And as and in addition there's also a lot of acres not just in Grey County but around the province that are 100 coded for our municipal friends here That's

00:27:56 SPEAKER_584: vacant land That again depending on your region is more or less likely farmland That's probably never been used for farming but does have agricultural potential So again again it's a very relative thing and that's been one of the things we've

00:28:09 SPEAKER_584: been trying to promote So from my perspective the idea with today quickly is to sort of wet your appetite about this I know everybody's trying to think about how they grow how they fit into the puzzle I think again Grey

00:28:20 SPEAKER_584: County is a huge contributor and I think there's like a lot of areas of the province I think there's there's potential for more I'm going to stop there answer some questions and like I said I'd be happy to come back

00:28:31 SPEAKER_584: talk about a more detailed presentation on this at a point if you want and we can certainly do this into 2027 when the next census comes out and there'll be more info to think about So I'm going to stop sharing

00:28:45 SPEAKER_584: my screen

00:28:48 SPEAKER_584: and open it up to any questions

00:28:53 SPEAKER_584: That's a really fast presentation for me quite frankly So I apologize if it seemed quick but that's that that's that's that's what we're what we got So always happy to answer some questions

00:29:05 SPEAKER_579: Any questions for Steve Definitely talks fast I cannot even try to match his speed

00:29:15 SPEAKER_580: Hey Simon I have a question for Steve Hey Steve Is there any are there any gaps in the available infrastructure

00:29:24 SPEAKER_580: in our part of the world that you would see as a barrier to growth and increases in productivity

00:29:33 SPEAKER_580: I

00:29:35 SPEAKER_584: think there's a few Again I think I'd have to go into the It's Blair right I'd have to go into the data a little bit more detail Like in certain sectors like avatars for example are a pretty big barrier right

00:29:46 SPEAKER_584: And for any of you guys that have heard me speak before like we do a lot of direct to beef direct to consumer beef It's one of the things we're doing that before we were cropping and quite honestly if it

00:29:57 SPEAKER_584: wasn't for a local abattoir who's a buddy of mine actually I don't think we'd do it But it's been a pretty good business for us and I think that in particular especially in an area where there's grazing potential which Gray

00:30:08 SPEAKER_584: County has in my opinion is a huge opportunity still But there is some barriers in that regard and again I think distribution the ability for people to get product into like

00:30:21 SPEAKER_584: I don't know my younger son's a butcher at a place down in St Catharines right And he he's now their procurement guy So he's going around and they only buy local direct Like it's you know it's one of those kind

00:30:32 SPEAKER_584: of restaurants and they're fairly big and growing And you know he's like it's hard to find the right people And so that kind of infrastructure I think Blair is significant is a significant issue not just in Grey County I think

00:30:43 SPEAKER_584: you know you have the benefit of having a really good infrastructure from crop inputs like the the people providing advice to farmers in Grey County Is is you know second to none really and it's been it's the same in many

00:30:56 SPEAKER_584: areas of that sort of northern middle tier of the province you know compared to some other areas I think So that's a real bonus But it's that middle part especially for some of the midsize farms I think that is limiting

00:31:08 SPEAKER_584: ability to for them to take advantage of it People people like me frankly that have off farm income and own a farm and could do more with it without even really realizing it

00:31:18 SPEAKER_584: So

00:31:21 SPEAKER_579: Thank you Steve I don't any more questions

00:31:25 SPEAKER_328: It looks like there's two questions both from Councillor Mill and Councillor McQueen Can you

00:31:32 Brian Milne: You go ahead I'll jump in Simon if you don't mind No go ahead Good morning Steve And my question is You talked to you mentioned

00:31:43 Brian Milne: you had met or

00:31:44 Brian Milne: someone had met with a group of nonfarming farmland owners over Over I think it was the Peterborough way Yeah What are some of the things that reasons why they weren't actively or using the farmland and what was used to

00:32:01 Brian Milne: lure them into the business so to speak or into you know considering letting their land be farmed Yeah So it So again as you go around the province to this point there's a lot of areas where there's a lot of

00:32:15 SPEAKER_584: as I call it 200 coded land right It does not have an FBR with it and you will see like you know up where I grew up which is south of Peterborough Workworth area the Trent Hills is the municipality There's

00:32:27 SPEAKER_584: a ton of it but a lot of that land has a oneacre parcel on it or house right So what happens is a lot of people I think don't even pay attention and they don't even really realize that the other

00:32:39 SPEAKER_584: you know 39 acres that they own of the 40 is actually farm coded They're just paying residential rates They don't know the difference right They might look it's common you know And you guys probably see this or I can appreciate

00:32:50 SPEAKER_584: it where you are But you know oh there's some real fence there Oh you know like this is actually pretty open You know like I can you know we can snowmobile in this and I don't have to worry about running

00:33:01 SPEAKER_584: over trees and things like that You know what I mean So what we did I worked with farm This this is something I has been kind of a pet project of mine for a long time And I'd be honest with

00:33:12 SPEAKER_584: that I'd like the whole province to do this but so basically farms at work worked with the County of Peterborough through the Greenbelt to

00:33:20 SPEAKER_584: identify anybody that they could send a letter to in that region that has this this criteria Right you've got a 200 coded parcel of land but there's no farm business registration number tied to it which means somebody isn't using it

00:33:34 SPEAKER_584: Sent them a letter We got a bunch of people out to a meeting in Milbrook and we kind of went through all the benefits and reasons why it might be beneficial And you know in my opinion there's lot of people

00:33:44 SPEAKER_584: you know Sure they'd love the property tax reduction but there's a lot of people who would like to maybe generate a little bit of income There's a lot of people who might like to see the land not grown up in

00:33:55 SPEAKER_584: weeds and don't really understand or know how to do that right And again it varies by area right If you're in the middle of Gray County I'd say the average person living in the area probably has a better clue of

00:34:05 SPEAKER_584: that than they do in say the Durham region you know But

00:34:10 SPEAKER_584: so it was really about that And and one of the things the farms that work is doing for Peterborough County

00:34:16 SPEAKER_584: is and sort of that general region is they've got a website up for helping

00:34:21 SPEAKER_584: for having people Basically it's like Tinder for farmers where you're saying Hey I got some land or net who wants to use it You know and vice versa

00:34:31 SPEAKER_584: But and again I think you know this is something Brian Like for me again it depends on the area but certain farm communities frankly Are not that easy for smaller businesses and especially if you're not from the area right Yeah

00:34:46 SPEAKER_584: get into and figure out how to do it You know if you get lucky like you know I rent a bunch of land in Northumberland There you know it's just kind of me The guys people buy this property and out

00:34:57 SPEAKER_584: of my nature I don't have a problem driving into somebody's driveway and knocking on the door But if it had been reversed they weren't coming looking for me when I'm combine and saying Hey do you want to farm my field

00:35:08 SPEAKER_584: That's not how they operate right

00:35:10 SPEAKER_584: Those are the kinds of things that really came out to me at that meeting in Millbrook a couple weeks ago

00:35:16 SPEAKER_584: And quite honestly that what they're doing there is it can be replicated all across the province I've been doing a little bit of work with Frontenac County that same degree Now again Frontenac's different There's a lot of trees a lot

00:35:26 SPEAKER_584: of rock a lot of swamp Right So it's a little bit different but it has the it's the concept that gets out there Right So I'd be happy to talk to you guys more about it at a point Or I

00:35:36 SPEAKER_584: know farms At work would be happy to talk to you guys about it if you're interested because they are passionate about this

00:35:44 SPEAKER_584: Very good thank you sir You're welcome

00:35:47 Paul Mcqueen: So we got Paul McQueen has a question for Steve Yeah thank you and thank you Mr Chair And this is really good information And as yourself Steve as a farmer and you can relate to it And both some of us

00:36:00 Paul Mcqueen: on here are farmers as well Yeah that's you You got a lot of you shared a lot of information here but I will say a comment that you know I've farmed all my life and we have we're a sixth generation

00:36:11 Paul Mcqueen: in our farm But cycles change in the sense of gate receipts If all of sudden cash cropping is low you know that changes where cattle are high Right now we're in that cycle but there's not the cattle and you know

00:36:25 Paul Mcqueen: there's you know and you can relate to that But one thing that Gray County Federation of Egg has always had a bit of an issue was good farmland planted In trees

00:36:36 Paul Mcqueen: and I mean it's up to the property owner who owns that land to be able to do that Understandably able to do that but you know there's probably a lot of farms out there You can see the original fence rows

00:36:46 Paul Mcqueen: but they've grown up wild and stuff I don't know if there's the ability to reclear those lands because it was originally farm land But then it gets to a certain point it becomes a significant woodland and there's a lot of

00:36:56 Paul Mcqueen: things that can very similar to your example Yeah there are there are pieces that like the RLT program the resilient ag landscapes program has aspects of that

00:37:09 SPEAKER_584: Yeah it's I've experienced it personally Paul so I know exactly what you're talking about

00:37:16 SPEAKER_584: Yes and again I think that from my perspective it does go to this idea of people understanding the value of farming and not you know again like to give you a very specific example a neighbor of ours where my parents

00:37:29 SPEAKER_584: live My parents have a rural property now The farm has been gone a long time but across the road has been a long time neighbor of ours and it's been owned by people from Toronto my entire life But a local

00:37:39 SPEAKER_584: farmer in the area has rented it Like he's now deceased but rented it my entire life I'm 54 Okay so a couple years ago when the farmer passed away I know these people I went to them and said I'd like

00:37:49 SPEAKER_584: to rent your farm It's a beautiful hills It's what people think in Northumberland County right It's

00:37:55 SPEAKER_584: always just pasture I'm like I want to pasture cattle on this farm It's perfect for me because my parents are right there I can do a whole bunch of things with it No we're planting trees and we're letting it grow

00:38:03 SPEAKER_584: up

00:38:05 SPEAKER_584: Now again in fairness they've beenit's been in agriculture my entire life so it's not like they haven't contributed You know what I mean But I don't completely understand why they felt that way now right But again I think there isif

00:38:18 SPEAKER_584: you go into the data and you drive around because I've done this as a bit of an exercise There's a lot of land that could easily be reclaimed and done in a way that's still environmentally sustainable You know as somebody

00:38:29 SPEAKER_584: that pastures cattle in woods there's ways to do it effectively Now again you diminish your hardwood capacity that kind of thing But there's ways to do it in ways that I think we don't explore enough and I think that has

00:38:42 Paul Mcqueen: become a bit of a detriment to certain sectors right Well I'll fall into my next question because I know we have to move on But just on the sense of I think when people plant trees they have the ability to

00:38:55 Paul Mcqueen: do a woodland management plan And and then that also is the twentyfive percent of the hundred percent too That's right More importantly is young farmers The price of farms are through the roof and I think if there's the ability to

00:39:08 Paul Mcqueen: reclaim

00:39:10 Paul Mcqueen: farmland for young farmers from the ability of affordability I think that's something I think we really have to look at because you know the price of you know between twenty and thirty thousand an acre here in Gray County is You

00:39:22 Paul Mcqueen: go to the bank and I got to borrow three million dollars to buy a farm It's like okay what's your job Yeah well and again I think to your point right Like and again there's a lot Again this idea of

00:39:35 SPEAKER_584: thinking a little bit differently right So you know I know a guy at home to give you an example who doesn't own any farmland but pastures quite a few cattle because he rents a couple different farms and he's you know

00:39:45 SPEAKER_584: he's gotten burned a little bit by that He's put up some infrastructure and then had to adjust But again it's a different business model And again I think in certain areas in Gray County to me would be one where if

00:39:55 SPEAKER_584: there's ways to connect these people there's probably ways to make that relationship work to help deal with the issue you're referring to Right Well thank you for that It's very individual though That's the other thing I think that people struggle

00:40:07 SPEAKER_584: with Like it's not something that I can get up here and profess to be It's gonna it's gonna increase your acres a hundred thousand You know what I mean But everybody seeing where it fits I think is really the key

00:40:20 Paul Mcqueen: So well and just last Comment comment is farming in the fifties with a forty horsepower or the sixties with a forty horsepower tractor and every hunting area you farm had a farmer on it And you know farming has changed where

00:40:33 Paul Mcqueen: you get the three hundred horsepower tractor and the big equipment You need the bigger fields and all that stuff So the dynamics for economies of scale have changed as change as well for sure Yeah I agree

00:40:45 Paul Mcqueen: Any more questions for

00:40:48 SPEAKER_579: Steve Except for the fact that we may want him back and so some times to come and elaborate a little more on what's going on in agriculture And thank you very much Steve for his presentation And certainly I

00:41:03 SPEAKER_579: don't know about the other participants on the call but it certainly has put a lot of thought in my mind of all things that are changing around us I'm happy to come up I go up to the soccer sale in

00:41:14 SPEAKER_584: Wyerton every spring and fall so I'm always I'm always The next sale is the seventh of May I believe in Wyerton Wyarton I was actually just looking for that So you think it's May seventh You can see it on the

00:41:26 SPEAKER_584: on the Beef Farmers of Ontario's website Okay perfect awesome Thank you I hadn't seen that yet Very good Quick question Simon Just to just is there something Gray County through policy or planning policy should be changing or should be considering

00:41:40 SPEAKER_585: or thinking about

00:41:44 SPEAKER_585: I'd have to think about that one Paul

00:41:47 SPEAKER_586: I I don't Again I don't I don't

00:41:52 SPEAKER_584: In my opinion this is in my opinion not a ministry opinion Okay I think a lot of what we're facing in Ontario in this context like you talked about is more about application than rules

00:42:04 SPEAKER_584: I think it's more about about being able to sort of see take a piece of land and kind of see the opportunity in it and see how it might fit somebody's circumstance You know what I mean I think I don't

00:42:14 SPEAKER_584: know that the rules prevent any of these things That we're talking about It's just how people view it Is you know as you as you guys know we have a very

00:42:24 SPEAKER_584: you know like

00:42:25 SPEAKER_584: there's certain commodities there's certain things we do right But the reality is the opportunity is pretty wide and a lot of the people looking to get into the sector like again two percent of the farms in Ontario produce sixtyfive seventy

00:42:38 SPEAKER_584: percent of the production right So the other ninetyeight percent are doing things way different than that other two percent right so it's the ability to sort of let that slide in I think is what challenges some areas and some areas

00:42:52 SPEAKER_584: more than others I've had this issue in Hastings County right They have a lot of land in the northern part of Hastings County which could be have some really interesting things done with it But you are not growing good corn

00:43:02 SPEAKER_584: on it and that seems to be an issue in my experience in that region in terms of being able people to go oh well it's no good for anything because I can't plant corn on it Well it's good for a

00:43:10 SPEAKER_584: lot of other stuff

00:43:14 SPEAKER_584: Maybe just about education a little bit I think yeah yeah Like quite honestly you guys have a fabulous resource in Gray Ag Services right Like it's unfortunate Well I'm not going to get into that because this is a ministry issue

00:43:26 SPEAKER_584: but it's unfortunate there isn't more of that around the province Frankly

00:43:32 SPEAKER_579: well there's yeah Anyways there's a lot of a lot of stuff that we can do in agriculture and I don't want take too much of your time but with The widening gap between Canada and the United States right now it

00:43:47 SPEAKER_579: opens up a lot of opportunity for entrepreneurs to get into a different type of agriculture grow different crops or whatever Processing probably will be the weak link in this all for sure for sure

00:44:01 SPEAKER_584: Am I Thank you very much and like I said I'm happy to happy to have further conversations if you're if you're interested Just let me know Thank you very kindly Steve and I'll talk to you again some other time Thank

00:44:14 SPEAKER_584: you You're welcome

00:44:18 SPEAKER_579: So I am gonna lean on Brittany for the next item on

00:44:24 SPEAKER_579: the agenda and what we need to do

00:44:26 SPEAKER_328: So I did actually miss item three declaration of interest So if you wanted to ask the group if there was any declarations of interest at this point I'll gladly ask Is there any participant that hasn't has the declaration conflict of

00:44:41 SPEAKER_328: interest in this meeting It

00:44:45 SPEAKER_579: doesn't sound like it So thank you very much for the opportunity Brittany and thank you very much for your honesty So we'll go to the next item then All right So we're moving on to item five A and that's a

00:44:58 SPEAKER_328: verbal update on renewable energy projects and this will come from Director Scott Taylor

00:45:05 SPEAKER_587: Thank you I'll turn it over to Scott and you go take the floor there Scott Scotts Great thank you Mr Chair and good morning to members of the committee Thanks for your time here this morning So the December Agricultural Advisory

00:45:17 SPEAKER_587: Committee feels like a lifetime ago now already but there was a request for more information on energy projects on agricultural lands and more specifically there was some talk about groundmounted solar and what do the current rules allow and what do

00:45:33 SPEAKER_587: they not allow in that regard So staff have done a bit of research and I just wanted to share some of the highlights with you here and certainly turn it back through the chair for any questions But basically the province

00:45:43 SPEAKER_587: has made it clear that they need to grow the electricity generation and transmission capacity to fuel both the province's growth but also to fuel the further electrification that's needed to support our future lifestyles So Ontario's independent electricity

00:45:59 SPEAKER_587: system operator also known as IESO

00:46:02 SPEAKER_587: estimates that Ontario is going to need seventy five percent more electricity than we currently produce by the year twenty fifty As such we're seeing a changing policy environment both policies and legislation in that regard and we're seeing increased procurement from

00:46:18 SPEAKER_587: IESO

00:46:20 SPEAKER_587: which is driving a lot of the conversation here locally on what might be permitted and what might not be In some cases some of that procurement would come in our settlement areas In another cases we're talking about lands that might

00:46:34 SPEAKER_587: impact agriculture and you know just thinking back to Steve's presentation in that regard whether some of these projects would take lands out of production in that regard

00:46:43 SPEAKER_587: So for energy proposals it's it's a multijurisdictional approach in this regard There can be approvals needed at the provincial level including what's known as a renewable energy approval There can also be the need for contracts

00:46:59 SPEAKER_587: through ISO to produce and Sell the power back to the grid assuming you're not just sort of powering your own farm in that regard And then at the municipal level there's the need for municipal support resolutions as well as their

00:47:12 SPEAKER_587: own permitting processes locally which sometimes can include zoning amendments or site plan control agreement or building permits in that regard I'm going to expand on a few of these terms here in just a second I will say that in the

00:47:24 SPEAKER_587: past couple years the most recent or the most common type of energy projects we're seeing proposed In gray are still wind projects solar projects and what's known as battery energy storage systems and so the acronym for that is often referred

00:47:38 SPEAKER_587: to as BESS

00:47:41 SPEAKER_587: And so just in terms of that changing framework in that regard in two thousand twentyfour the province updated the provincial planning statement to now include electricity generation facilities transmission facilities and energy storage systems as part of the definition

00:47:57 SPEAKER_587: for onfarm diversified uses and for those that might not be familiar onfarm diversified uses are widely permitted across the countryside so both in agricultural and rural lands But these are the types of uses that that need to be limited in

00:48:13 SPEAKER_587: scale and so the current rules restrict them to a maximum of either two percent of the farm or no more than one hectare and And so we see a lot of these onfarm diversified uses across the county in terms of

00:48:26 SPEAKER_587: agritourism uses and in terms of you know on farm manufacturing shops like we see a lot of in Grey Highlands and Southgate in that regard and some of those experiential agricultural opportunities but through the twenty four provincial

00:48:42 SPEAKER_587: planning statement the province has also said

00:48:45 SPEAKER_587: energy generation or energy storage systems can be included under that definition in that regard and so within a prime agricultural area farm under the PPS would be permitted to have these energy systems

00:49:02 SPEAKER_587: provided They don't they don't encompass any more than one hectare of the farm If something is looking at if someone is looking at something more large scale then there would need to be further assessment done to see whether it's appropriate

00:49:14 SPEAKER_587: There's specific provisions in the provincial planning statement that take you through the tests that need to be met in that regard But largely speaking those smaller scale ones the ones on One one hectare or less are much easier to see

00:49:26 SPEAKER_587: supported But aside from the provincial planning statement policies the province also has also introduced direction through their recent procurement intakes through IESO on what types of projects will or will not be eligible for contract

00:49:43 SPEAKER_587: And and this acronym won't mean much to anybody but the LT two request for proposals which was issued I believe in twenty five maybe back in twenty four had very specific rules to say that they're not accepting or they're not

00:49:58 SPEAKER_587: offering contracts for energy proposals on specialty croplands So in gray that would be our our apple and vineyard lands and they're also not offering contracts for groundmounted solar facilities on prime agricultural lands

00:50:14 SPEAKER_587: So certainly nothing to say you can't still put a solar panel on top of a drive shed or a barn but you can't take a fiftyacre field and convert it to to solar panels and expect that you're going to get

00:50:25 SPEAKER_587: an IESO contract in that regard They further specify that where they are looking at projects on agricultural land so this could be other types of energy projects like say a wind turbine There is the need for an agricultural impact assessment

00:50:40 SPEAKER_587: which is a study that looks at the the potential for impacts on farmlands in that regard I do want to clarify that what I've just spoken Into to are the prime agricultural lands and in Gray County we're also we also

00:50:54 SPEAKER_587: have a lot of rural land which is generally not quite as high quality farmland but could still have contracts in that regard And through you Mister Chair I do see Blair's or Member Freeman's hand up Would you like to take

00:51:09 SPEAKER_587: that question now or wait till the end of my talk in this regard

00:51:20 SPEAKER_580: Two hands up there Go ahead Blair If you yes I just was looking for clarity Scott When you said prime agricultural lands so you mean specifically that it must be zone rural in order to do a fiftyacre ground mount solar

00:51:35 SPEAKER_580: project for instance

00:51:38 SPEAKER_587: Yes So through you Mr Chair Generally speaking in order to to get that contract for the ground mount and solar then they would have to demonstrate that it's that's it's not high quality farmland and therefore doesn't qualify as

00:51:54 SPEAKER_587: the primary cultural So in Gray County sort of the general the general terminology there would be would be rural lands and not always but in most cases those are more your classes four to seven farmland in that regard Though we

00:52:07 SPEAKER_587: do still have pockets of some quality land in the rural as well

00:52:12 SPEAKER_579: I also thought Brenda had her hands up there a minute to go I can wait till once done Thanks Okay

00:52:21 SPEAKER_579: you go Andrea

00:52:23 SPEAKER_587: Okay so just to carry on I won't be too much longer I promise Another key element of getting a contract through IESO now and this is a change from a number of years ago is the need for what's called a

00:52:37 SPEAKER_587: municipal support resolution So very early on in the process somebody proposing an energy project the tope's to get a financial contract needs to go in and chat with the municipality show them what they're proposing help them understand what's going to

00:52:52 SPEAKER_587: be needed there and and seek support from the municipality And so members of the committee may recall a number of years ago under a previous provincial government there was what was called the Green Energy Act and the Green Energy Act

00:53:05 SPEAKER_587: really took a lot of those approvals for energy projects outside of municipal Hands hands and made it purely a provincial approval so municipal policies didn't apply in that regard I think the provincial government of the day faced both some support

00:53:21 SPEAKER_587: and criticism But on the criticism side there was the thought that some municipalities didn't want such energy projects in their municipality but didn't have any veto power so to speak So the current provincial government has introduced this notion through IESO

00:53:36 SPEAKER_587: of municipal support resolutions So a municipal support resolution is an in principle support for the project so it's not an approval but it's in principle support which is not legally binding And if you like it represents a point in time

00:53:49 SPEAKER_587: So when that municipal council voted on on that municipal support resolution whether to offer it or not that's that's what the the opinion was of the day But that can change over time So the municipal support resolutions come early in

00:54:02 SPEAKER_587: the process They come ahead of any municipal planning applications or provincial approvals in that regard Municipalities can also make such municipal support resolutions conditional on meeting certain tests or in some cases also conditional on what's called

00:54:19 SPEAKER_587: a community benefit agreement So a community benefit agreement is a contract negotiated between the proponent and a municipality that requires the proponent or the developer to provide certain things to the municipality In some cases that could be specific funding

00:54:35 SPEAKER_587: or it could be amenities or mitigation measures to the local community or neighborhood in that regard Community benefit agreements in the past have included in some cases lump sum payments or payments over time based on output They've also provided

00:54:51 SPEAKER_587: things like support or training to municipal emergency services Think firefighters in that regard with respect to say things like wind turbines or these battery energy storage systems Community benefit agreements appear to be commonly used throughout the process

00:55:09 SPEAKER_587: but they're not 100 needed or they're not required in order to get a contract under IESO But what is required is the municipal support resolution And so if a municipal municipality has a framework and seeks a community benefit agreement there

00:55:24 SPEAKER_587: then although it's not required by IESO it might help the municipality in getting towards that municipal support resolution which is required by IESO

00:55:36 SPEAKER_587: municipal support resolutions are particularly key for proponents as well given some changes to the legislation In that under the Planning Act now if somebody comes in and applies for a zoning bylaw amendment for say a new wind farm the

00:55:50 SPEAKER_587: municipal council can either approve or refuse that But the municipal council's decisions are no longer appealable to the Ontario Land Tribunal So particularly if I'm a proponent that's looking At this new wind farm then a I really want to get

00:56:06 SPEAKER_587: my ducks in a row to get that municipal support resolution to understand locally whether there's an appetite for this or not Because if I go through and invest all that money and time into the planning process and the renewable energy

00:56:18 SPEAKER_587: approval process and then the municipality turns me down I have no recourse any longer through the Ontario Land Tribunal Ie I can no longer appeal it It doesn't mean municipalities can act with impunity in this regard They still have to

00:56:32 SPEAKER_587: act in good faith and there's always the possibility for a municipal council's decision to be challenged through courts But strictly speaking it can't be challenged through the Ontario Land Tribunal anymore And so then getting back to the provincial approvals and

00:56:46 SPEAKER_587: I promise I'll wrap up here soon The renewable renewable energy approvals issued by the province are required for various projects that are above a certain base plate capacity So if we're looking At wind or solar projects you know the

00:57:02 SPEAKER_587: very small projects that you might be using to power your own operation might not need an approval in that regard But certainly when you're getting into selling back to the grid then you would need that renewable energy approval issued by

00:57:15 SPEAKER_587: the province in addition to any municipal approvals Battery battery battery energy storage systems if they're simply storing energy do not need a renewable energy approval But if they're cogenerating so let's just say they have a series

00:57:31 SPEAKER_587: of solar panels as well as the battery energy storage then they would need a provincial approval in that case Furthermore when we're looking at the siting of these these renewable energy projects in some cases the transmission lines to get the

00:57:46 SPEAKER_587: power from the generation source back to the grid might also be subject to an environmental assessment process So think some of the major lines like the Bruce to Milton line from a number of years ago that of course went through

00:57:58 SPEAKER_587: an EA process in that regard And so finally many municipalities across Grey don't have comprehensive energy policies in place in their official plans and zoning bylaws at this stage because we were all made to remove them when the previous provincial

00:58:11 SPEAKER_587: government introduced the Green Energy Act And and since that act has been been repealed

00:58:18 SPEAKER_587: municipalities haven't necessarily all taken the steps to put those policies back in place in that regard That said municipalities are starting to get these proposals for these energy facilities and many are interpreting their current official plan and zoning documents to

00:58:33 SPEAKER_587: suggest that for some of these larger scale uses you would need either a zoning bylaw amendment or site plan control agreement to situate the the proposals locally And so to summarize the policy procurement process does support some level of

00:58:49 SPEAKER_587: energy generation and transmission on agricultural lands but there are some restrictions in place both on the size of the project as well as the type of energy being produced on prime ag lands So think back to the discussion on ground

00:59:03 SPEAKER_587: mounted solar in that regard Those won't be issued comments or contracts for prime ag lands and so they're both provincial and local requirements as well to help protect agricultural through the use of agricultural impact studies and other tools in that

00:59:17 SPEAKER_587: regard So I realize that was quite a mouthful Certainly happy to take any questions or follow up at a later time if there's any questions to the committee turn it back to you Mr Chair Thank you Scott for that presentation

00:59:28 SPEAKER_579: And indeed there is a lot there Brenda You have your hand up I'll give the floor to you So I don't know that it's so much a question but I will say that at Sheep Day at Gray Bruce Farmers' Week

00:59:39 SPEAKER_588: there was definitely like a about 45 minute presentation on solar grazing in Gray County specifically because actually most of Bruce doesn't have lands that are like to do this It was very interesting to see the overlay of the maps of

00:59:53 SPEAKER_588: what lands are allowed overlaid on top of existing transmission lines

01:00:00 SPEAKER_588: that could actually take this energy So it's it's definitely not a simple process I think it is good that there are so many layers that community support needs to be in there But it was also interesting to hear how the

01:00:14 SPEAKER_588: the solar I don't know set up whatever the entrepreneurs who are trying to get all these contracts they are also learning a lot from sheep farmers Like there's a lot of this going on in Alberta especially with large solar arrays

01:00:28 SPEAKER_588: out there that are grazed by sheep And they are definitely learning about making their panels more suitable to having farming happen concurrently as well as with fencing needs and all that sort of thing So it is interesting to see this

01:00:43 SPEAKER_588: whole industry evolve Little

01:00:45 SPEAKER_588: yeah but it's definitely it's not an easy thing to get this started on any patch here in Guy County I think

01:00:53 SPEAKER_579: Thank you Brenda Now I see three hands up and I don't want to be selective or so but I'll let Gail go first

01:01:05 SPEAKER_582: Just unmute myself Thank you Mr Chair Yeah just a few questions and a question to Scott I didn't hear specialty eggs mentioned and we have quite a bit of specialty ag in our urban area and

01:01:21 SPEAKER_582: we've had you know many discussions with the province of trying to rezone that to

01:01:30 SPEAKER_582: development lands or anything along those lines

01:01:34 SPEAKER_582: for housing affordable housing and the province has definitely said no we can't do that But we haven't had anybody come in asking for renewable energy But I'm just wondering can they pick specialty

01:01:51 SPEAKER_582: egg to be able to put a solar farm in Because we do have some lands available in the Thornbury area and I'm not sure if I would want them down there But there are other lands in Clarksburg too that are

01:02:07 SPEAKER_582: zoned specialty egg and they're not being farmed So the question to Scott is anything being stopped on specialty ag or can they do renewable energy on those

01:02:22 SPEAKER_587: Drew you Mister Chair thank you for your question Member Ardell I apologize maybe I didn't read my own notes carefully enough With respect to the specialty croplands there are restrictions So so in that most recent intake through IESO the

01:02:38 SPEAKER_587: LT two RFP they excluded applications on specialty croplands Okay So they weren't issuing any of those larger contracts It doesn't mean a farmer can't still put something in to power their own operations perhaps But but based

01:02:54 SPEAKER_587: on the most recent intake you wouldn't see say a widespread solar farm on specialty croplands in that regard With respect to some of your other points

01:03:05 SPEAKER_587: there has been a changing landscape in the province on the ability to redesignate specialty croplands for other uses such as urban uses or housing and up until 2004

01:03:17 SPEAKER_587: arguably that was the most protected land in the province That the highest restrictions at a provincial level The province has relaxed a little bit of that with the 2024 provincial

01:03:27 SPEAKER_587: planning statement and so there is a little bit more opportunity now to see that But certainly locally both at you know Town and Blue Mountains and Meaford as well as at the county we do still have fairly restrictive policies

01:03:43 SPEAKER_587: in place there with respect to you know urban style growth coming out into the what we'll call the the apple and grape lands if you will

01:03:53 SPEAKER_587: A follow up Mr Chair

01:03:58 SPEAKER_582: You go ahead Oh okay Thank you Yes so we met with the province last year at AMO and they definitely said no We're not going to be rezoning specialty eggs for affordable housing

01:04:11 SPEAKER_582: we got a flat no So maybe it may be in other areas but not in the town of the Blue Mountains So

01:04:20 SPEAKER_582: we've tried several times and I'm not sure I see the warden on there I'm I don't know if it was mentioned again at Roma if we could rezone some of those lands to affordable housing because we just can't get affordable

01:04:35 SPEAKER_582: housing But that's a difference topic But I'm just wondering with the specialty egg the province hasn't switched any of ours so I'm not sure Thank you

01:04:46 SPEAKER_579: You're welcome So now again three hands up

01:04:50 SPEAKER_579: Is it

01:04:51 SPEAKER_579: is it any follow or order If do you see a number if not okay I'll give the floor to Paul McGreen

01:05:00 Paul Mcqueen: Go ahead Paul So Andrea was maybe going to follow up with Gail's comments So maybe if Angela wants to go first yeah

01:05:08 Andrea Matrosovs: Okay Yeah you go Sure Thank you Chair And yes Member Ardell with her public hat on here also sits on our council And and yes we haven't had any further movement on that And the challenge that maybe isn't quite understood

01:05:25 Andrea Matrosovs: across the way is the parcels of specialty ag that Member Ardell is referring to are smaller Parcels that are now encompassed and kind of surrounded about with the other with the urban growth that's been occurring in Clarksville and

01:05:42 Andrea Matrosovs: Thornbury and as I've learned from her um it you know when it's too small of a parcel it's not operational for our orchard owners to pick up and start rehabilitating as orchard for example So that's been the kind of unique

01:05:56 Andrea Matrosovs: scenario we have been pitching to the province that in this particular case and I actually I was benefited from receiving from Jim

01:06:06 Andrea Matrosovs: Yurum who used to sit on our council who was a planner back in the day when they were looking at this and he actually shared with me a report from the 1970s that had identified tiers of specialty potential specialty ag

01:06:21 Andrea Matrosovs: identified in the Thornbury area that weren't meant to never be developed It was done in a tier system where they said these ones here should be the ones That you I'm sorry I've got a cat behind me that's making a

01:06:32 Andrea Matrosovs: lot of noise

01:06:34 Andrea Matrosovs: You you know the this section you know used last but this section you might convert into development beforehand It was never a cut and dry so there's been a disconnect over the years between what was originally intended Thank you

01:06:50 SPEAKER_587: Thank you If I could through you Mr Chair could I respond to that one just briefly You're going to ask us Excellent Yeah Thank you Thank for your comments Member Odell and Warren Matrosoff's One of the things that the province

01:07:05 SPEAKER_587: has been talking about for a number of years is they have clear guidelines on how we map and identify prime agricultural areas and they use a technique what's that's known as a LEAR study a Land Evaluation Area Review study But

01:07:20 SPEAKER_587: they've been very clear at least for my entire career that those LEAR studies aren't to be used for the identification Of specialty croplands and when I say identification of specialty croplands it means both adding new specialty croplands and potentially considering

01:07:36 SPEAKER_587: where to take away existing specialty croplands if they're not used anymore And and so for a number of years the folks at OMAFRA have been talking about you know could we could we develop those guidelines for specialty croplands but it

01:07:51 SPEAKER_587: just sort of hasn't made its way to the top of the priority list yet But I think

01:07:56 SPEAKER_587: we've been at least locally asking them to see if they can bump that up because that is important to areas of our municipality And going back to Steve's presentation you know as we consider the impacts of climate change even

01:08:11 SPEAKER_587: you know we might see differing levels of agricultural opportunity across the county And and having some clear guidance on where we can add or remove these specific croplands would be important So yeah I don't want to take up too much

01:08:24 SPEAKER_587: of the committee's time on this but certainly happy to chat online or chat staff to staff with town staff on this this topic further for sure

01:08:32 SPEAKER_579: Well thank you Scott and don't feel bad about taking time because these are very major issues and it's always good to get clarification on what's going on And so

01:08:44 SPEAKER_579: I'll and I apologize for calling everybody by their first name because I virtually know everybody here on a first name basis So maybe doesn't sounds very professional but that's the way it is Paul

01:08:59 Paul Mcqueen: yeah thank you Mr Chair and I just want a good conversation and this is a good community to talk about this I want thank Scott for bringing this forward I think we should

01:09:09 Paul Mcqueen: through the egg services I think we need to

01:09:13 Paul Mcqueen: move this forward for the opportunities of those in Gray County that it does We have marginal lands pasture lands If it works I I think what Brenda was saying if there's some mapping it would be good I think proactively looking

01:09:26 Paul Mcqueen: at where it could work You know the high price of farms as I mentioned if there's opportunity to help offset those high costs I think that's something to look at I know that probably everybody knows Don Lewis previous mayor and

01:09:39 Paul Mcqueen: county councilor or has a

01:09:43 Paul Mcqueen: solar farm down Southgate where it is able to have sheep pasture and I think that's really a winwin Because then you're still preserving agricultural use but also farming income as well So I just think I would like to see this

01:09:56 Paul Mcqueen: move forward and the opportunities that could I don't know if there's somebody from the ministry It could maybe one day thing that could be set up through the AG office I just think it's there's opportunity to maybe jointly with Gray

01:10:06 Paul Mcqueen: County Scott and other ones just to pull that all together There's mapping I just think I think there could be a great opportunity for some of those in Gray County

01:10:17 SPEAKER_579: Thank Paul and Blair Not to say any less important than anybody else but I'll give you the floor

01:10:26 SPEAKER_580: Thanks Simon Scott maybe I missed it but did you clarify what this means for property tax assessment So if you take 50 acres out of your farm and set up ground mount solar how would that impact property taxes assessed in

01:10:41 SPEAKER_580: a particular township

01:10:45 SPEAKER_580: Through you Mr Chair

01:10:48 SPEAKER_587: thank you for your question Member Freeman I I didn't touch on that That's something we can look further into Yeah my pure guess is if you were to obviously remove land from farming

01:11:04 SPEAKER_587: purposes then you might not be eligible for that farm tax rate anymore And if you're adding value to

01:11:14 SPEAKER_587: the land through What you built on the land whether they be solar panels or wind turbines or what have you in that regard then there could be assessment increases But that is just speculation on my end and certainly before I

01:11:27 SPEAKER_587: could speak in any way intelligently I'd probably have to chat with our finance folks and others So it's something we can look further into and bring back to this committee if it's something that the committee has an interest in hearing

01:11:37 SPEAKER_587: more about

01:11:41 SPEAKER_579: Thank you again Scott

01:11:43 SPEAKER_579: Are there any more questions to our presenter

01:11:49 SPEAKER_579: Seeing none

01:11:52 SPEAKER_590: Thank you Councillor Mackie Mr Chair Sorry Oh okay Sorry

01:11:56 SPEAKER_590: Okay you go right ahead Thank

01:12:00 Scott Mackey: you Mr Chair and thank you for the presentation Scott Certainly lots of questions out there in regards to battery energy storage systems in regards to groundmounted solar how AG fits in with ground groundmounted solar

01:12:15 Scott Mackey: A couple of questions with

01:12:18 Scott Mackey: the exemption on prime agricultural land How accurate is our mapping in Gray County That what is rural and what is prime ag land and how was that My

01:12:30 Scott Mackey: understanding that there may have been some politics involved in the mapping was first done So I'm just wondering how accurate our mapping is throughout Gray County That's the first question I am shocked that you would think politics would be involved

01:12:44 Scott Mackey: with anything

01:12:50 SPEAKER_587: Through you Mr Chair it's a good question Councillor Mackey My understanding is and I wasn't here at the time Grey undertook a study in partnership with the province in approximately the mid 1990s and that study was a precursor to the

01:13:05 SPEAKER_587: province developing what I've called the Lear framework the land evaluation area review So my understanding is that study looked at not only the soil type in terms of whether it was a CLI class one to seven also the

01:13:22 SPEAKER_587: the lands around You know was it was a particular piece of land in a larger contiguous block of farmland or was it right on the edge of a settlement area or what have you And and

01:13:35 SPEAKER_587: incorporated some other factors as As I've been told and in some cases those other factors were you know keen local knowledge Where you had a farmer say Listen I know this says it's a class four but I've been farming these

01:13:46 SPEAKER_587: lands for 50 years and they're very productive And in some cases I think we had some

01:13:52 SPEAKER_587: politicians that also gave their opinions in that regard In the end what happened was the county proposed mapping that was ultimately approved by the province and we took those larger areas of quality farmland and those become

01:14:08 SPEAKER_587: became our agricultural lands and sort of generally speaking the lesser lands became more rural And then there was sort of separate rules for the specialty crop lands in Meaford and Town of Blue Mountains in that regard

01:14:22 SPEAKER_587: So that was done in approximately the mid nineties We haven't done any major updates to that What the province has told us since then is if you're going to update that mapping they really don't want to see it being done

01:14:34 SPEAKER_587: on a case by case basis like a farm by farm basis they'd rather see it on the landscape level So an entire municipality or an entire county In this regard I will say that the Township of Southgate a number of

01:14:44 SPEAKER_587: years ago

01:14:46 SPEAKER_587: did some mapping updates in their township that found their way into the county plan Whereby thinking particularly former Proton Township you know used to be called Vote and Proton but there's been a lot of tile drainage and improvements made to

01:15:01 SPEAKER_587: the lands that took lands that previously we had designated as rural and made them agricultural in that regard So there has been some increases in Southgate in that regard But I will say based on the scope of what that study

01:15:15 SPEAKER_587: would entail the county hasn't gone back and done any major sort of reassessment since the mid nineteen nineties And then finally I'll say that so when we look at our mapping we can see what we've designated ag and rural We

01:15:30 SPEAKER_587: also have that soil quality Quality So if we want to do sort of a quick gut check we can see whether it's a class one or class four or what have you So we have a bunch of tools at our

01:15:39 SPEAKER_587: disposal and to get to your question more specifically I'll say our mapping is pretty good No mapping is ever perfect but it it's it served as well for the past twenty five or thirty years since it was developed

01:15:54 Scott Mackey: Thank you thank you Scott My second Mr Chair my second question Scott you talked about the restrictions of groundmounted solar on prime agricultural land

01:16:07 Scott Mackey: and you know Paul McLean spoke about you know pasturing of cattle or sheep underneath groundmounted solar So would that

01:16:17 Scott Mackey: would that say that if you were you know going to pasture sheep or pasture cattle and on a fiftyacre chunk in prime ag

01:16:27 Scott Mackey: would that say it's still remaining within the egg

01:16:33 Scott Mackey: like is that still an egg use I guess is my question

01:16:39 Scott Mackey: So if the proponent said I've got 50 acres in prime egg I'm going to put up groundmounted solar and I'm going to pasture sheep

01:16:46 Scott Mackey: it's not really being taken out of agricultural production But how would the province weigh in on that

01:16:53 SPEAKER_587: So through you Mr Chair my understanding through the most recent procurement intake is that groundmounted solar was explicitly prohibited on Primag So again not a legal opinion by any means but

01:17:09 SPEAKER_587: it appears based on what they put out there that those simply wouldn't be eligible for contracts even if you were grazing sheep underneath like the sort of grass under glass model that has been spoken about in Southgate

01:17:23 SPEAKER_587: If someone was looking at doing something more just for their own Needs then there might be more flexibility but based on this most recent intake they were saying that groundmounted solar was explicitly prohibited in both prime ag and specialty croplands

01:17:36 SPEAKER_587: in that regard So you know I when I was doing some research this morning I looked up those lands in Southgate that do have that large farm on They are all designated agricultural in our county official plan but under the

01:17:49 SPEAKER_587: most recent procurement intakes I don't believe they would have otherwise been eligible for an IE IESO contract

01:17:57 SPEAKER_579: Thank you thank you Scott and thank you for your questions Paul you got your fingers up Yeah the burning question I was just saying that the devil's advocate to that could be if you built cattle barns on that prime

01:18:14 Paul Mcqueen: ag and put your solar panel on top of that barn

01:18:18 Paul Mcqueen: You're you're almost like

01:18:21 Paul Mcqueen: doing the same thing But differently

01:18:24 Paul Mcqueen: because you can I think you could do that in Prime Ag You can build a cattle barn you build a four hundred foot five hundred foot cattle barn and then put all the solar panels on top

01:18:33 Paul Mcqueen: It just you know there's sometimes there's needs to be some tinkering maybe on that part and maybe I'm thinking on an MZ or something like that But maybe maybe those things that need to be have those conversations outside the box

01:18:45 Paul Mcqueen: with the province as well You know I'm just I just use that as a doubles advocate that that's probably allowed

01:18:51 Paul Mcqueen: So

01:18:54 SPEAKER_579: well thank you for that comment Paul Because I've been if I hear this morning and I try to be neutral in the discussion but the the amount of electricity we're gonna need in the next couple of years how are we

01:19:06 SPEAKER_579: gonna find a happy balance between land use and need

01:19:12 SPEAKER_579: So that is the question that

01:19:14 SPEAKER_579: floats in my mind So

01:19:17 SPEAKER_579: anyhow I I think we can close this part of the discussion I think there's a two further questions Okay I'm sorry I moved my screen Okay you go We've got the councillor Evany and we also have CAO Schertz

01:19:33 SPEAKER_579: Okay

01:19:34 SPEAKER_579: go right ahead I

01:19:36 SPEAKER_579: whoever asked the questions Okay

01:19:39 SPEAKER_579: okay

01:19:41 SPEAKER_579: Shirley that's your name there

01:19:43 SPEAKER_579: I'll give the floor to you

01:19:49 SPEAKER_579: Now you're are you mute

01:19:51 SPEAKER_415: Ah thank you Mr Chair Sorry about that I just wondered if I could ask God if I may to share um a little bit more for the committee about the impact assessment process and when that might kick in If anybody

01:20:05 SPEAKER_415: was looking to put a an energy project on their farm whether it's a solar or a bus or anything of that nature just to help folks know a little bit about that process and what size of project would require that

01:20:19 SPEAKER_415: to kick in

01:20:22 SPEAKER_415: Sure use

01:20:24 Randy Scherzer: chair I actually was going to address this while the discussion was happening Back to Blair's question and and Councillor Kivney's question I did a quick research on Impact's website and I'll share the link in the chat But looks like

01:20:40 Randy Scherzer: there it depends on the the size of the insulation of whether or not you're assessed assess your assessment will change or not if it's less than ten kilowatts your property assessment won't change It'll remain the same whatever your current classification

01:20:57 Randy Scherzer: is for your property If it's a medium insulation they say it might change so depends on the circumstances An impact would obviously review that if it's between ten kilowatts and five hundred kilowatts If it's a large insulation they're noting that

01:21:10 Randy Scherzer: will be reclassified likely to industrial As as their classification so over 500 kilowatts is what they define as large installations So so just to give you a sense of what Impact looks at in terms of whether or not it's reclassifying

01:21:25 Randy Scherzer: properties from an energy project perspective that's based on Impact's information on their website Again as Scott indicated we're happy to follow up further with Impact to see if there's any further information that we can provide to the committee

01:21:40 SPEAKER_579: Thank you Randy for that insight and did not answer your question

01:21:51 SPEAKER_579: Hearing no comments or questions Sorry Dr Brittany I maybe gonna lean on you again I don't see anybody Any questions No Okay Turn it back to you And thank you very much

01:22:07 SPEAKER_579: for your presentation Scott And thank you very much for this lively discussion because there's a whole lot more to it than what meets the eye from a layperson So you go right at Brittany

01:22:19 SPEAKER_328: All right can you see my screen there I just shared the agenda If you wanted to move on to item five B you can read out the motion there and get a mover and seconder before we pass it over to

01:22:30 SPEAKER_328: Sarah Johnson our trails and forestry coordinator Would

01:22:34 SPEAKER_328: I be too bold to ask you to read it Yeah no problem Yep no problem So this is for report PDR AAC O nine twenty six a forest management bylaw update and the motion is that report PDR AAC O nine

01:22:49 SPEAKER_328: twenty six be received and that staff consider any further feedback received from the agricultural advisory committee with respect to the county's forestry management bylaw update And then if you could just get a mover and seconder for that

01:23:02 SPEAKER_579: Thank you very much for reading Dr Brady and I do and today named mover at this point I can move And okay now the

01:23:14 SPEAKER_579: okay Sorry the the computer is faster than I think So I think that was a member Brenda Yes and on Brenda and Andrea their fingers up at the same time So going by the alphabetical order Andrea is the mover

01:23:30 SPEAKER_579: and Brenda is the seconder for this motion Is that okay Brittany

01:23:36 SPEAKER_583: Yes that works great Thank you Is there any discussion on the motion

01:23:43 SPEAKER_579: If not call for the question Everybody in favor of the motion

01:23:47 SPEAKER_579: or anybody opposed Let's go Dudley Anybody opposed to the motion Maybe state your case if you are opposed Mr Chair there is a report

01:23:59 SPEAKER_328: Yeah so we can review the report and the details of the report and then we can carry the motion At the end

01:24:06 SPEAKER_583: so you want to first discuss our report Yeah you go Yeah yeah So so Sarah Johnson our trails and forestry coordinator will present the report and then at the end of her report we'll we'll move the motion

01:24:20 SPEAKER_583: Sarah it's the floor to you Thank you

01:24:24 SPEAKER_592: Thank you Chair I'm just going to share my screen here Can everyone hear me All right I am at home and sometimes my internet isn't always The greatest

01:24:36 SPEAKER_592: Yep we can hear you sir

01:24:38 SPEAKER_592: Okay wonderful Thank you So

01:24:41 SPEAKER_592: this is just an update on our forest management bylaw Previous to the update that we had presented to the committee I

01:24:51 SPEAKER_592: think we met back Actually I think I had some dates on my next slide There

01:24:59 SPEAKER_592: we go

01:25:01 SPEAKER_592: So our forest management bylaw we actually initiated this process just to give you all a little bit of a background in 2020 and then the pandemic hit and so it kind of got tabled for a little while and then we

01:25:14 SPEAKER_592: reinitiated the process early last year But we did before that meet with the agricultural advisory committee I think it was December 2024 just to kind of get their support and you know to have a discussion

01:25:31 SPEAKER_592: as to whether or not it was something that we wanted to bring forward and we did get that support at that time And so since then we did present a report to County Council They also gave us their blessing to

01:25:42 SPEAKER_592: move forward with the public process The public open house

01:25:47 SPEAKER_592: it was there was a public open house Sorry that we hosted at Craig Services That was on April twenty third of last year and then we had a formal public meeting on May the sixth So what has happened since then

01:26:02 SPEAKER_592: Obviously as we've we've gathered a lot of comments and a lot of information and so we just wanted to take this opportunity to provide the committee here with a little bit of an update So basically the big thing is what

01:26:15 SPEAKER_592: have what have we heard What have we heard Did we get it right And and never in a million years did we think that our first round of our draft would have been correct and right So we did have a

01:26:26 SPEAKER_592: lot Of comments and this is basically not all the comments All the comments are in the in the report or actually that's just a high level too But the main comments are included in there and these are the higher level

01:26:39 SPEAKER_592: ones But one of the biggest comments that we did hear from the the industry in particular was that circumference limit could not be They did not want it removed and that was something that we were really pushing for because we

01:26:54 SPEAKER_592: wanted to

01:26:57 SPEAKER_592: Get in alignment as much as we can with some the highest environmental practices that we could But understanding a little bit more about how the industry works and how strongly some of those individuals felt we felt it was something I'll

01:27:14 SPEAKER_592: get into detail later I apologize I have a little bit of a tickle in my throat today so I might be coughing or clearing my throat a little bit But it was one of those comments that we did hear And

01:27:24 SPEAKER_592: we'll talk about it a little bit more in my presentation later

01:27:28 SPEAKER_592: The other thing that we did hear

01:27:31 SPEAKER_592: specificI tried to pull out some of the specific comments that were related to the agricultural sector We did hear from the agricultural community that there was an importance to retain the ability to keep fields to clear the trees when

01:27:47 SPEAKER_592: necessary to maintain a field in active production and there shouldn't be an onerous process in order to do that Other things that we heard were that fines needed to be increased as well as if there is

01:28:03 SPEAKER_592: a fine there should also be a requirement for replanting if deemed appropriate That the bylaw should align with the climate change action plan and other policies and studies that have been passed since the bylaw

01:28:20 SPEAKER_592: Already talked about replanting and then one of the other big comments that we heard was that there should be an introduction of fees for permits and maybe increasing some of the existing application fees Currently

01:28:37 SPEAKER_592: right now the only application fee that we have

01:28:43 SPEAKER_592: is for the minor exemption which are the clear cutting applications So there is a suggestion that we may introduce

01:28:49 SPEAKER_592: for those harvesting those

01:28:53 SPEAKER_592: managed forest harvest or managed cuts applications as well So I'm just

01:29:02 SPEAKER_592: going to go into my next slide here The other thing that I touched upon in my report in the recent last I would say the last month we've received comments from the Soginojiboy Nation Environmental Office about the bylaw So

01:29:18 SPEAKER_592: we haven't had a a lot of time to digest those comments or review them and incorporate them in our existing working draft that we're working on right now So we will look into those more prior to presenting to council But

01:29:33 SPEAKER_592: we did want to touch upon them and acknowledge that we had received them and

01:29:39 SPEAKER_592: provide

01:29:40 SPEAKER_592: just a little bit of that information for the committee today to let you know what they have requested A lot of a lot of the requests are regarding the inclusion of wording acknowledging traditional territory They're

01:29:56 SPEAKER_592: looking for inclusion of stewardship rights and the

01:30:02 SPEAKER_592: ability to provide input a little bit more within the forestry management practices that are occurring within their traditional territory They they very strongly indicated that they did not support the clear cutting applications

01:30:19 SPEAKER_592: and that they should be

01:30:21 SPEAKER_592: eliminated if not considerably reduced Into how an individual can apply for one they also requested consideration for culturally for incorporating culturally significant areas through the bylaw They

01:30:39 SPEAKER_592: also commented about greater biodiversity and climate change language we had heard as from prior to receiving these as well

01:30:49 SPEAKER_592: as well as incorporating

01:30:52 SPEAKER_592: cultural criteria into forest management standards So we are as I mentioned reviewing some of these well all of these comments that we have received We haven't had an opportunity to have a fulsome conversation

01:31:08 SPEAKER_592: with Saan on these but they are they have been received and are being considered

01:31:15 SPEAKER_592: So

01:31:17 SPEAKER_592: obviously we are still considering Sorry I just said that we are all considering But but before we can create the final version of the bylaw for council's consideration staff have considered the other comments that we have received

01:31:33 SPEAKER_592: and have made some recommendations for the revisions to the bylaw which include that reconsideration of the circumference limit Now I don't think what we're proposing right now is not just to include it back in as it was I think we're

01:31:49 SPEAKER_592: going to try and well we're proposing that it's more restrictive so the the residual area of the remaining trees needs to be larger so that there is more

01:32:02 SPEAKER_592: of a base left after the trees the harvest would occur So that's one big thing that we are considering Based based on some of the comments that we received we all are also considering that those fees for the permit applications

01:32:18 SPEAKER_592: as well as the consideration for increasing the existing fee and then the remainder the remainder of things are minor administrative things that we have have noted that needed to be updated

01:32:35 SPEAKER_592: So what what's next for us Basically you know we are looking for feedback from the advisory committee today and we are going to continue to follow up on those comments Obviously this the Saan comments we are still looking into and

01:32:52 SPEAKER_592: then the hope As I as I drafted this

01:32:57 SPEAKER_592: this presentation I kind of I don't know if we'll hit that target of council in the spring but I I'm going to say spring early summer If if we can get a draft back to council for their consideration and and

01:33:11 SPEAKER_592: that's basically kind of where we're at with this with this one in particular So I'll turn it back over to you Chair If anyone has any questions or comments happy to answer where I can and take down notes as you

01:33:25 SPEAKER_592: provide that information

01:33:27 SPEAKER_579: Well thank you Sarah It was certainly an indepth presentation and the the It's generating the call for questions

01:33:40 SPEAKER_579: hearing or seeing none I still see a shared screen here Yes Sorry So I'll try my best to be a bit more prudent this time and use my

01:33:55 SPEAKER_579: I am sorry I don't see any questions at this point a Okay Sorry Yeah Okay

01:34:01 SPEAKER_583: Councilor McQueen Yep

01:34:03 Paul Mcqueen: Simon you should always be looking at me You never know what I might be saying It's true

01:34:08 Paul Mcqueen: Just a quick comment It's interesting with the comments from Sean I know that we just had a presentation about agricultural land and there's probably certain reasons why And I know there's a strict process on clear cutting and you know whether

01:34:22 Paul Mcqueen: there's trees that are in decay or dying or maybe a plantation or something like that But there's always that balance I think what we're trying to find it I just you know from against of agriculture land and farmland so I

01:34:34 Paul Mcqueen: just make that comment in the sense of a previous speaker that talked about the farmland and I did raise the point about there could be lands that could be re cleared I'm not sure where that may fall into with Sean's

01:34:46 Paul Mcqueen: comments but we got to find that balance as well So just a comment Right Thank you Paul

01:34:57 SPEAKER_328: We've also got a question for Councillor Mackie

01:35:03 Scott Mackey: go ahead Scott Thank you Mr Chair And I think Paul basically touched on you know my question I just wondered if there's any conflict between this potential bylaw and being able to reclaim land You know as our earlier

01:35:19 Scott Mackey: presentation provided we're

01:35:22 Scott Mackey: losing farmland and you know sometimes trees get planted by conservation authorities and then 30 years later they they turn into a significant woodland and there's no opportunity to reclaim that farmland So I just want to make sure that there is

01:35:38 Scott Mackey: an opportunity when it makes sense to reclaim farmland because of the loss that we're seeing Thank you

01:35:46 SPEAKER_579: Thank you for the comment Scott And

01:35:50 SPEAKER_579: just to be on the safe side go back to Brittany

01:35:53 SPEAKER_328: I don't see any further questions at this point Okay So I think now you can ask for a motion to carry the report So asking for a motion to move the report presented

01:36:10 SPEAKER_328: A mover and a seconder please We already have a mover and seconder so now we Oh we have to That's right Yep Okay So call for the question Good thing you're there Call for the question anybody Anybody opposed to the

01:36:24 SPEAKER_328: motion

01:36:27 SPEAKER_328: Hearing none That passes

01:36:30 SPEAKER_328: Thank you all and thank you Brittany So back to you No problem So next we'll move on to item five C and it's report PDR AAC 1026 for the animal compensation bylaw update And the motion

01:36:46 SPEAKER_328: is that report PDR AAC 1026 be received and that staff consider any additional feedback received from the agricultural advisory committee with respect to the county's nuisance beaver and coyote slash wolf bylaw reviews So if you could just get a mover

01:37:01 SPEAKER_328: and seconder for that and then we can hear the report from Sarah once again and then we can carry the motion Okay I'll look for a mover and a seconder on this report

01:37:15 SPEAKER_579: Is that a mover and a seconder Two brave persons we need

01:37:21 SPEAKER_328: So it looks like we have hands up from Councillor Hutchinson and Member Diane Booker Okay to use them as the movers and sectors we can use Yes thank you very kindly for your help Councillor Hutchinson for the mover and Diane

01:37:34 SPEAKER_579: for the seconder Okay so we got that done So and now you will present a report to us Then or Sarah will

01:37:43 SPEAKER_579: present a report to us

01:37:45 SPEAKER_579: You go ahead Sarah

01:37:48 SPEAKER_592: Thank you Chair

01:37:50 SPEAKER_592: Bear with me again I'm going to try and share screen again

01:37:55 SPEAKER_592: Okay

01:38:04 SPEAKER_593: So can everybody see that again

01:38:09 SPEAKER_593: Yep All

01:38:10 SPEAKER_593: right

01:38:11 SPEAKER_592: Um So this one's a little bit different because we had already previously provided the advisory committee with an update last September So this is an update and another update too So since that last meeting I just

01:38:27 SPEAKER_592: wanted to

01:38:30 SPEAKER_592: again we had those we had a similar we had that meeting in 2024 Sorry I forgot that I had this slide here just to give you an overview of what we had done We met sorry we met with the with

01:38:42 SPEAKER_592: the accessibility advisory committee in December of 2024 as we did with the previous bylaw or The forestry bylaw as well We we shared that open house with that with that as well on the twenty third of last year of April

01:38:57 SPEAKER_592: and then we had a public meeting on May the eighth and then we did provide an additional update to the advisory committee on these bylaws last September

01:39:07 SPEAKER_592: and so basically since that last presentation to the accessibility or not the accessibility the agricultural advisory committee staff have conducted additional research regarding the programs and methods for wildlife control Many

01:39:23 SPEAKER_592: of the comments that we received in support of discontinuing the programs indicated that the lethal methods were counterproductive and caused the opposite effect of population control So obviously we wanted to make sure that we had all

01:39:40 SPEAKER_592: the information and do further research into the matter We obviously have heard strong arguments on both sides for keeping the bylaws but also also as well as discontinuing them and as a result of done considerable research on the differing options

01:39:55 SPEAKER_592: However if the county's bylaws are not effectively contributing to nuisance animal control then it might be in the the interest of the county to consider other options whether it's now or

01:40:12 SPEAKER_592: whether it's in the future

01:40:14 SPEAKER_592: From a legislative standpoint there is not a requirement by the county to have these bylaws And if any of the members may recall in my previous reports

01:40:26 SPEAKER_592: there was some research done and we did reach out to different municipalities eleven other municipalities to be exact And out of those that were contacted only one had a beaver bylaw still in existence and only three other

01:40:42 SPEAKER_592: had some variation of a coyote control bylaw

01:40:49 SPEAKER_592: Landowners sorry

01:40:53 SPEAKER_592: However regardless of

01:40:55 SPEAKER_592: any bylaw that's in place landowners still have the ability to hire or like a hunter or trapper or hunter trap themselves should they have those provincial qualifications The bylaw itself isn't Any kind

01:41:11 SPEAKER_592: of regulation with regards to hunting it's simply a compensation program

01:41:19 SPEAKER_592: It does provide an additional incentive to trappers which could offset the cost to landowners But again it doesn't regulate hunting or trapping

01:41:31 SPEAKER_592: Staff obviously do have some concerns that the bylaws themselves are not achieving the desired effect and in fact are causing nuisance animal populations to increase Increasing the payment for nuisance animals or even streamlining the processes

01:41:48 SPEAKER_592: under the bylaws could be helpful for providing for those that provide those trapping services But it actually may do little impact to

01:41:58 SPEAKER_592: reducing those populations So as a result we staff are obviously wanting to share this information with the committee as well as seeking Further direction on the bylaws including the option including some options to amend or replace

01:42:14 SPEAKER_592: So just to dive a little bit deeper I don't want to go into any huge amount of detail on all the research that we did I tried to be very

01:42:23 SPEAKER_592: concise in my report because it was a lot of information But essentially what we what we determined and we did highlight one study that we found was that non in particular speaking to on the coyotes

01:42:40 SPEAKER_592: for first non lethal methods were more effective as long term deterrence The study

01:42:50 SPEAKER_592: was obviously not the only study that came to that conclusion but it did indicate that lethal methods including bounty programs tend to have temporary localized effects at controlling populations and that that in the long

01:43:06 SPEAKER_592: term those populations will rebound and often increase over time in response to that

01:43:13 SPEAKER_592: So they did in the same study talk about nonlethal methods that did prove to be very effective which included habitat modification exclusion techniques

01:43:25 SPEAKER_592: such as fencing guard animals which I know we've talked about around this table before motionactivated sprinklers and ultrasonic repellent devices they all proved to be effective in deterring the animals specifically coyotes

01:43:42 SPEAKER_592: without causing harm We did also look at live trapping and relocation This in particular is not as effective based on restrictions within the province About under the hunting guidelines

01:43:58 SPEAKER_592: you can only replace a certain distance or relocate a certain distance away and with the territorial um

01:44:08 SPEAKER_592: the way that the animals work they they'll just come back So it's that one was not necessarily an option However in looking at both of these both the lethal versus non lethal we do acknowledge that non lethal

01:44:24 SPEAKER_592: methods obviously cost a little bit more or a lot more in some situations but and

01:44:32 SPEAKER_592: and by no means do they eliminate problems 100 of the time

01:44:38 SPEAKER_592: Similarly looking at beavers it's a similar outcome

01:44:45 SPEAKER_592: We did find some

01:44:47 SPEAKER_592: information from the North Carolina Wildlife Resources Commission and they noted the following that often bounties remove the wrong beavers For example beavers that are easily trapped versus the ones that are actually causing the damage

01:45:04 SPEAKER_592: and removing beavers may not solve the issue as remaining beavers will create new dams or move into the habitat They estimate that less than ten percent of the beavers are actually causing the issues and bounty programs target the population more

01:45:21 SPEAKER_592: indiscriminately

01:45:23 SPEAKER_592: So with the nonlethal options with beavers there were notable methods that include water level control devices water flow device or culvert protection systems

01:45:40 SPEAKER_592: and protective barriers Similar to coyotes the live trapping wasn't really something that was effective and

01:45:50 SPEAKER_592: we

01:45:51 SPEAKER_592: do acknowledge that beaver control may not be as directly impactful to farmers as coyote control but we do acknowledge that

01:46:02 SPEAKER_592: dammed water courses or blocked culverts can impact farmlands

01:46:07 SPEAKER_592: So that is my brief overview of of the research It was it was a lot more than that but I wanted to just touch on that a little bit before we got into the options as to what what we might

01:46:18 SPEAKER_592: be considering when we're weighing everything out here So if we decide to keep the by bylaw

01:46:27 SPEAKER_592: obviously

01:46:29 SPEAKER_592: it would the result The why we're doing this in the first place was because we had received a comment from the trapping community that indicated that the the compensation was too low And in the case of both of the bylaws

01:46:43 SPEAKER_592: they the fees have remained the same for over twenty years and there's been obviously inflationary costs to trapper and the increase That have increased significantly in that last 20 years plus We've also

01:47:00 SPEAKER_592: had a considerable amount of comments noting that the process itself is very specifically the coyote compensation process is very onerous And for the benefit of the committee I will do a brief overview of the steps

01:47:16 SPEAKER_592: needed to take in order to qualify for it

01:47:19 SPEAKER_592: This is outlined in my report As well but there needs to be a kill needs to occur It needs to be confirmed by a livestock evaluator that is a municipal livestock evaluator The livestock evaluator then or sorry the livestock owner

01:47:35 SPEAKER_592: then can hire a licensed trapper or hunter Those individuals will then kill the predator The proof of that kill needs to be presented to the municipality The municipality signs off on that and sends it to the county and then the

01:47:51 SPEAKER_592: county reviews and approves and then the payment is sent to the trapper So there is a number of steps in that process

01:47:58 SPEAKER_592: Staff are definitely open to options for streamlining that

01:48:02 SPEAKER_592: process but in that there is a challenge as to which steps could be eliminated from the process We've heard that the requirement for the livestock evaluator is is a challenge It's

01:48:18 SPEAKER_592: difficult and we've also noted that in some cases where a livestock kill has occurred the predator will take the entire carcass and there is nothing to evaluate So that makes it really difficult However

01:48:35 SPEAKER_592: we do note that the removal of this the livestock evaluator requirement could create a significant issue with unregulated compensation for the hunting of the animals and we could see a marked increase in claims across the county which could obviously have

01:48:51 SPEAKER_592: budgetary impacts and also lead to exploitation with the animals being hunted in other jurisdictions and claimed in Bray

01:49:01 SPEAKER_592: We've also heard a lot of complaints about the need to go through the member municipality as well as the county for approval Municipal signoff and county approval applies to both the Bylaws however the removal

01:49:17 SPEAKER_592: of one of the approvals would introduce an issue Would introduce an issue that if it's only the county that's verifying number one the county doesn't have a municipal livestock evaluator Number two it would require that all trappers present

01:49:33 SPEAKER_592: their proof of the kill to the county which means they all need to come to Owen Sound And if the physical evidence of a beaver and a a beaver tail or coyote ears are still required Then the county would need

01:49:50 SPEAKER_592: to find a manner in which to dispose of those remains

01:49:55 SPEAKER_592: So it does It does have some challenges with it We have looked

01:50:02 SPEAKER_592: into considering something

01:50:06 SPEAKER_592: for presentation digitally Ie they can send a picture Obviously that has some challenges as well as it could be misused

01:50:20 SPEAKER_592: with people reusing photos or altering photos to get for multiple claims

01:50:26 SPEAKER_592: So there's not a perfect scenario here that we have found to to address that

01:50:34 SPEAKER_592: In addition to all of the challenges that with the process itself trapping in particular has lost a considerable amount of popularity with over the last number

01:50:50 SPEAKER_592: of years And those that are that have the qualifications are aging out with smaller younger populations not replacing them

01:51:00 SPEAKER_592: Historically the benefits of fur trapping animals were much more lucrative and profitable for pelts was considerably higher which in addition to the compensation that was through the bylaw sorry I think I just

01:51:17 SPEAKER_592: Which in addition to compensation through the bylaw made it profitable Obviously twentyfive dollars for a beaver claim in nineteen in the nineteen nineties is far more better

01:51:30 SPEAKER_592: far better than it is today So as a

01:51:37 SPEAKER_592: and as a result and as a result it was also common practice that trappers would complete trapping without a payment from the landowner Some trappers would even seek agreements with landowners to have sole trapping rights on the property Today

01:51:54 SPEAKER_592: some trappers continue to not charge for services and have noted that landowners are reluctant to pay for trapping based on above the previously noted historic practices So that coupled with the increased cost of trapping and the decreased

01:52:10 SPEAKER_592: value for pelts has resulted in many moving away and the retirement And so finding those individuals to perform to provide that service is becoming more challenging

01:52:23 SPEAKER_592: Another thing worth noting and that we wanted to note was that from time to time the county and the municipality will use will hire trappers specific Specifically for beavers that are that impact local infrastructure

01:52:40 SPEAKER_592: In these cases the county does pay for these services but under the current bylaw the trappers could also be considered and eligible for reimbursement of that bounty And

01:52:55 SPEAKER_592: so

01:52:57 SPEAKER_592: should the revised bylaw be the considered option one modification to the bylaw would be To no longer provide compensation for trapping on public lands the trapping would be that would then it would be solely covered

01:53:13 SPEAKER_592: by paying for their services

01:53:17 SPEAKER_592: So that's if the bylaws were to remain

01:53:21 SPEAKER_592: If they were discontinued we

01:53:26 SPEAKER_592: we my place here We do

01:53:30 SPEAKER_592: note

01:53:31 SPEAKER_592: We do note that there could be implications for the agricultural community We note that the protection of of your property would still be permitted in that you could hire a trapper or hunt these predators any predators

01:53:48 SPEAKER_592: obviously within the provincial guidelines It just would remove that compensation piece Again

01:53:58 SPEAKER_592: we don't we don't regulate the those practices through our bylaw that is simply a compensation tool Obviously there could be an increase in cost for for harm for the agricultural community

01:54:13 SPEAKER_592: should they need to hire somebody for those services And if that trapper is no longer eligible for compensation that cost could be increased

01:54:24 SPEAKER_592: If we did discontinue those programs those those other options those nonlethal deterrents would the fencing the guardian dogs that sort of thing could increase or would increase of the cost overall But

01:54:43 SPEAKER_592: it does offer an opportunity for the county to reinvest those funds into things such as education pilot projects or potentially grants for landowners for abatement including fencing Currently our budget allocates 15000

01:55:00 SPEAKER_592: for compensation under the beaver bylaw as well as an additional 15000 under the coyote bylaw Other

01:55:12 SPEAKER_592: options I guess as opposed to just keeping or getting rid of there could be the option as well as maybe eliminating one versus the other So keeping the beaver and getting rid of the coyote or vice versa

01:55:28 SPEAKER_592: and in addition to this there's also other ways that the county could assist if the bylaws were not to be continued or or discontinued for that matter Sorry if they were continued or discontinued for that matter keeping

01:55:45 SPEAKER_592: apprised obviously of the latest research and working with municipalities I know that around this table we have talked about maybe helping With those dog bylaws those municipal dog bylaws to have different requirements for working dog working dogs

01:56:01 SPEAKER_592: those guardian dogs that are required for protection

01:56:07 SPEAKER_592: So then

01:56:09 SPEAKER_592: where does that leave us and what are our next steps Obviously this additional information we wanted to present to the committee today for further feedback but we also sorry feedback Sorry feedback on the matter We are staffer

01:56:26 SPEAKER_592: staff are really conflicted We are we are hearing obviously both from the trapping and farm communities that these bylaws are a valuable tool and they should be updated and continued but we've also heard and done research that are is determining

01:56:42 SPEAKER_592: that they may be counterproductive in the actual control of the nuisance animal population So any

01:56:50 SPEAKER_592: final Any final recommendation that we do provide to council will need to balance obviously all the comments we've heard the research and provide all the good information that we can gather to to council So today

01:57:07 SPEAKER_592: obviously our what we're hoping for after I stop talking is to get your feedback and your comments and then our hope is again that springsummer timeline to get a final draft of both these bylaws back in front

01:57:23 SPEAKER_592: of Council for their consideration So thank you for listening That was a longwinded presentation that I just made But again I'm happy to take questions or hear your comments So I'll turn it back over to you Chair Thank you

01:57:41 SPEAKER_579: Thank you Sarah for the long It was a long one It was a very indepth presentation and this is a whole lot more do these things than a layperson would think So either

01:57:55 SPEAKER_579: any questions from the audience Please

01:58:03 SPEAKER_328: We have a question from Councillor Mackie

01:58:09 SPEAKER_328: Okay go ahead Scott

01:58:11 Scott Mackey: Thank you Mister Chair You know thank you Sarah I know you've done a lot of work on this and there is some very different opinions out there on how we should proceed I just wanted to I was at the public

01:58:25 Scott Mackey: meeting that we had in Gray County Chambers and I don't remember anyone that appeared for that public meeting not in favor of continuing or to increase the size of the bounty that we've got both for beavers and

01:58:41 Scott Mackey: for coyotes I

01:58:44 Scott Mackey: know you're getting Other information from other people I guess my concern is when we're looking at that information when it comes from North Carolina I'm not sure how pertinent it is in regards to what's going on in Gray County So

01:58:59 Scott Mackey: I know in an agricultural community most of the farmers that I represent feel that the bounty is required to help mitigate some of the livestock kills The the livestock evaluator is working well in in

01:59:15 Scott Mackey: our municipality providing compensation through his evaluation from the province the bounty is just above and beyond what the province is providing for that livestock that is killed So I would have a very difficult

01:59:31 Scott Mackey: time supporting not continuing to have bounty program and I believe that it should be increased to compensate those that are looking after these predators Thank you

01:59:43 Scott Mackey: Thank you thank you and Paul

01:59:47 Paul Mcqueen: you go right ahead Yep thank you and thank you Mr Chair And some of our comments to what Scott is saying I think there you'd probably get a different perspective for those that own animals that have been affected versus nonfarm

02:00:04 Paul Mcqueen: owners for one thing But I guess the first thing comes to my mind is you know a lot of our programs we do at the county whether it's DC charges and everything We do have a cost of living built into

02:00:14 Paul Mcqueen: that and that's one thing I think has been missing here Is it's it hasn't kept up with it I know Sarah you talked about that and I guess it would be interested to come back Is what would that what would

02:00:23 Paul Mcqueen: that number be today if we had have implemented I don't one and a half or two percent cost of living in that So I think that gives us something to least look at that And obviously we know the cost of

02:00:33 Paul Mcqueen: everything has gone up and certainly if the subsidy or the or the bounty is not kept up with those costs that could have some effect as well as nobody's you know as much you

02:00:45 Paul Mcqueen: know taking up the program So I just think that it would be interesting to have what that number could look like Certainly certainly with regards to beavers we know that not only for landowners farmers we just again from our previous

02:00:59 Paul Mcqueen: speaker here today about departments of farmland and you know and productive farmland and certainly flooding of farmland is not something that's very productive for the agricultural side so I think in the sense of having a program that at least helps

02:01:13 Paul Mcqueen: control the beavers from the farmland perspective and not only that from the municipal standpoint with you know we have water on the side of our infrastructure it does and you mentioned that as well So so I just think that

02:01:26 Paul Mcqueen: certainly to have an idea what that number would be today I think it's something that's important I know from Gray Highlands perspective we do pay trappers I think twenty five dollars or something I saw something just recently with regards to

02:01:39 Paul Mcqueen: beavers that they capture and stuff like that And I know Mississippi Valley does hire

02:01:43 Paul Mcqueen: people to trap beavers as well on their infrastructure So it's not something that's that's going away I will say just in a summary side I did tell you know my dad I said you know like we haven't had at least

02:01:56 Paul Mcqueen: in the eastern part of Gray County we don't have groundhogs anymore And I you know we used to and nobody liked groundhogs because you know Brian you hit them with your tractor you know what happens right And so we you

02:02:06 Paul Mcqueen: know we're not happy We're not unhappy to not have the holes in the farmlands but certainly you know as predators change the you know the big part I think from from groundhogs other than Wyatt and Willie they're not around anymore

02:02:19 Paul Mcqueen: And and so you know the big part is my dad said when he was a kid there wasn't coyotes This wasn't an issue and you know so things have changed And I guess you know like everything the prey and the

02:02:30 Paul Mcqueen: predator part does change through different dynamics of how that is so certainly as the comment with regards to it may not have an effect on the population but certainly if the uptake has not been there because of the cost of

02:02:43 Paul Mcqueen: living on that bounty that may have an effect as well I'll stop there Mr Chair but thank you very very much for that report

02:02:52 SPEAKER_579: thank you Paul and Gail you go right ahead

02:02:58 SPEAKER_582: thank you Mr Chair and I didn't know we had beaver and coyote bylaws until when I got to Gray County in the early 2000s and it was brought to us because of the transportation So

02:03:14 SPEAKER_582: I'm wondering if Mr Pat Hoy has any comments from transportation on if there's a lot of beaver damage and that's the reason why the bylaw was implemented I believe at that time or even before that because the

02:03:31 SPEAKER_582: beavers were damming up and then the water running over the county roads and causing a lot of nuisance And so I'm just wondering is there been a lot of damage So if somebody from transportation could be able to answer that

02:03:47 SPEAKER_582: then

02:03:48 SPEAKER_582: you know that's the reason why But if there's no damage being done to roads and and the beaver dams beaver dams coming and going and whatever I'm

02:04:02 SPEAKER_582: not sure So I'm not on county council anymore So maybe somebody else can answer that question And thank you Sarah for the great report You know we still have coyotes running on our property here and I have a massive dog

02:04:17 SPEAKER_582: who's just petrified of them So we keep them in when they when they are howling and

02:04:24 SPEAKER_582: we protect our own dog from that But yeah I think it probably is a good thing to keep the bylaw

02:04:32 SPEAKER_582: both of them and maybe increasing the the amount just a small amount because it has been the same for

02:04:40 SPEAKER_582: twenty six years So it it's not much but it still compensates people So those are my comments Thank you

02:04:49 SPEAKER_579: Thank you Gales God you had your hand up

02:04:55 SPEAKER_587: Yeah Thank you through Mr Chair and thank you to all the committee members for your comments Member

02:05:02 SPEAKER_587: Ardell just to address your comments first Certainly we can chat further with transportation services on those matters I know both transportation and the planning department occasionally from time to time need to hire trappers with respect to impacts on infrastructure

02:05:18 SPEAKER_587: and slow transportation As you said the county roads and we've had to hire them for county Trails in the past as well There's been some culverts on the CP Rail trail that the beavers have made a home near So I

02:05:33 SPEAKER_587: think just to build on some of what Sarah has shared and some of the research that we did there's not a lot of these bylaws across the province with other municipalities and including in other counties and municipalities that have significant

02:05:49 SPEAKER_587: agricultural

02:05:51 SPEAKER_587: sectors in In in their boundaries and what we've been hearing anecdotally and we've had a lot of good conversations with sheep producers and others is that the coyotes seem to be and this is anecdotal we don't have empirical evidence more

02:06:06 SPEAKER_587: plentiful than ever So we're seeing lots of coyotes We're seeing a fair number of attacks on livestock Luckily we haven't seen much attacks on people yet but but we're seeing more and more And and so

02:06:20 SPEAKER_587: what we're trying to ascertain as staff is if we've been one of the only counties that's had these bylaws for years and yet our populations seem to be continuing to grow To put it bluntly like is there another way to

02:06:36 SPEAKER_587: to come at this issue trying to work collaboratively of course with farming and ag sectors that might have more of an impact And and you know Councillor Mackey take your point that you know some of the the examples cited in

02:06:51 SPEAKER_587: the report from say North Carolina or elsewhere might not be directly Gray County related but our own planning ecologists and other local individuals have shared similar examples about you know the lethal control methods being short term

02:07:07 SPEAKER_587: and temporal and in fact populations increase And so I think the worry as staff and as stewards to the Gray County budget in that regard

02:07:19 SPEAKER_587: is that we didn't want to potentially recommend to council that the bounties increase and that we do more on the lethal method if that's in fact having the opposite effect on beaver and coyote populations And so certainly as staff and

02:07:35 SPEAKER_587: Sarah please jump in here too You know I don't think we're necessarily jumping right to okay listen we need to we need to recommend doing away with these bylaws But I think objectively we also need to look at are they

02:07:47 SPEAKER_587: achieving what we're trying to achieve and that is better protection for our you know agricultural sectors but also our infrastructure in terms of the beavers and and so you know certainly the input you give is very valuable today

02:08:03 SPEAKER_587: And and as Sarah said we're struggling with this as staff because we know we've you know from the farm community from the trappers that that they feel they need these but we're wondering if maybe there's other avenues that the county

02:08:16 SPEAKER_587: could explore and I see Emily has her hand up too Maybe there's further opportunities for partnership with Greg Services to look at other control methods as well that might might better

02:08:30 SPEAKER_587: suit this issue we're having So again open to feedback I don't say any of this to try to argue with the committee or your lived experiences in that regard You know this way better than I do but I just wanted

02:08:40 SPEAKER_587: to build on the perspectives that Sarah shared in that regard

02:08:45 SPEAKER_579: Thank you Scott and Emily I'll give the floor to you

02:08:51 SPEAKER_594: Yeah thanks I was just wanting to comment that I

02:08:56 SPEAKER_594: absolutely agree with what was said And Scott you had really good points Like obviously we don't want to be encouraging populations to rise with policies But I also think it's important to remember that the lethal methods are really important for

02:09:11 SPEAKER_594: producers to have access to because the nonlethal ones are really costly and they can take a long time to install if we're talking about fencing or guardian animals that need to be like found and purchased and trained and integrated with

02:09:27 SPEAKER_594: a flock or things like that and I think that if a producer doesn't have like firearms license or like the you know ability to to Use those lethal methods themselves Then it's really important

02:09:43 SPEAKER_594: that we have a strong network of of people who they can hire or can contact and help protect the animals And I think that a lot of those producers have a really difficult time finding a trapper or a hunter

02:09:59 SPEAKER_594: to come and help them on their property So if if a bounty program could support like you know

02:10:09 SPEAKER_594: You know a group being in the area who can come in and do that kind of thingthat is still really important Just in the meantime while producers are trying to actually address the problem with things like fencing or guardian animals

02:10:24 SPEAKER_594: or

02:10:26 SPEAKER_594: further steps afterwards

02:10:30 SPEAKER_579: Thank you Emily for those comments and Scott

02:10:34 SPEAKER_579: you go ahead

02:10:36 Scott Mackey: Thank you Mr Chair and I just justI just wanted wondered I guess my question is for Mr Taylor just whether or not there be any data points Scott looking at I know in Army Mississippi there's certain areas that are actively

02:10:51 Scott Mackey: coyote hunted throughout the winter time and you know typically you know in probably a five or six country block area there's fifty or sixty coyotes that are taken out of those blocks in the winter

02:11:07 Scott Mackey: time I'm just wondering if there be any data that we could look at the number of livestock kills in those five blocks compared to other blocks that aren't actively hunted to see if it actually is having an impact

02:11:24 SPEAKER_587: Thank you Yeah you go ahead Andrew Scott Through you Mr Chair I'll maybe give an initial response and then through you turn it back over to Sarah because she's Done lot of work on this It's it's a great question Councillor

02:11:38 SPEAKER_587: Mackie When we get a claim

02:11:43 SPEAKER_587: we get a form that talks about

02:11:47 SPEAKER_587: which did the work which farmer hired trapper and the location of that So at a broad level I think we could work with our mapping staff and maybe go through you know the past few years of forms in that regard

02:11:59 SPEAKER_587: and start to plot those on a map and see if there's a bit of a a heat map there both for the beavers and the coyotes to say you know is this a countywide problem or are we really talking about

02:12:11 SPEAKER_587: you know three or four concessions in each municipality where we're seeing sort of those repeat issues So

02:12:18 SPEAKER_587: we don't have anything at our fingertips right now that would give us that

02:12:23 SPEAKER_587: that level of information Like we can tell you how much we've spent each year on beavers and coyotes and the claims in that regard But we don't necessarily because the county doesn't get involved in paying out for those livestock claims

02:12:37 SPEAKER_587: We also don't have great information on the number of kills of livestock What we've been hearing anecdotally again from different farmers from disparate parts of the county is it seems like you know the numbers are up But I know even

02:12:51 SPEAKER_587: in talking to members of this committee in the past they've shared stories about

02:12:56 SPEAKER_587: you know one farm being targeted over and over and over and another individual not too far away having no issues and both having similar levels of infrastructure in terms of fencing or what have you So yeah I don't have great

02:13:08 SPEAKER_587: information Sarah I don't know if you have anything further to add there

02:13:14 SPEAKER_592: It it yeah it's a really tricky

02:13:17 SPEAKER_592: it's a really tricky thing to find because I mean we only yeah we only have the form information that we have We haven't conducted any kind of mapping Historically this process also involved an additional step of

02:13:34 SPEAKER_592: involving the MNRF or whatever that they were at the time to have an additional signoff where they restricted the hunting area to a 10 kilometers as to where the kill occurred

02:13:50 SPEAKER_592: and so I think that's kind of stayed status quo sort Of since that requirement was removed but there is as as Scott said there's no we don't have any kind of mapping that would show

02:14:06 SPEAKER_592: that in particular But it's certainly something that we could look into and see if we could figure it out a little bit further a little bit more succinctly if it is certain areas

02:14:19 SPEAKER_595: Thank you Sarah and Brian You have a question there Thank you Mr Chair and not so Much a question as comment and some observation of our own experience here We have availed ourselves of the program couple

02:14:36 SPEAKER_595: times in the last number of years

02:14:39 SPEAKER_595: and the question I keep asking and it was asked here earlier is Are we achieving any ends with this program And I'll say that the program at best is ineffective If my infrastructure on the farm is being threatened

02:14:55 SPEAKER_595: by rising waters from beavers I'm going to deal with that problem because the infrastructure is worth way more than whatever somebody's going to give me for a bounty Well Sarah I keep telling you we're not calling it a bounty it's

02:15:07 Brian Milne: a harvest fee But nonetheless whatever you want to call it it's never going to compensate for the damage that potentially could happen on the farm And as far as coyotes go they are all around us here We have 300 yos

02:15:21 Brian Milne: in my son's flock

02:15:23 Brian Milne: the coyotes are screaming and howling every night There I've seen them in the yard in broad daylight They're all around us and yet

02:15:31 Brian Milne: we have only lost I think a handful of yos over the years and that was because a storm went through and the electric fence was down before somebody realized that it was off It only took the coyotes about a day

02:15:42 SPEAKER_595: to figure it out but it took us a couple days to figure out But nonetheless um

02:15:49 SPEAKER_595: you know the value of a yo nowadays is you know it's not what a what a cattle beast would be valued at but nonetheless it is valuable So I'm not going to wait for the program I'm going to deal with

02:16:01 SPEAKER_595: the problem and I have to think that I would be supportive of

02:16:09 SPEAKER_595: get rid of the bylaw and let the ag community deal with the problem themselves

02:16:13 SPEAKER_595: Thank you

02:16:15 SPEAKER_579: Thank you Brian and Paul You got an additional comment or a question Yeah just

02:16:23 Paul Mcqueen: interesting The other yesterday I was talking to a fellow 65 He has cattle and he doesn't have anybody to take over And I said well maybe you should switch the sheep And he said yeah but then the coyotes will be

02:16:36 Paul Mcqueen: knocking on my door every day That was just a comment that he made Anyway

02:16:41 Paul Mcqueen: you know he's farmed all his life But I guess the point in a in a practical sense is

02:16:47 Paul Mcqueen: thank goodness the province still supports the program for the loss of those of those animals because you know I know it's maybe been questioned over the years but and there has been ups and downs on that

02:17:03 Paul Mcqueen: program But

02:17:06 Paul Mcqueen: needless to say if you have a few claims then they require

02:17:12 Paul Mcqueen: action and maybe one of those actions is maybe better fencing or However however or or having somebody

02:17:20 Paul Mcqueen: sign a form that they're going to

02:17:24 Paul Mcqueen: hunt the predator

02:17:26 Paul Mcqueen: but if you can't find and if this program is one more way of creating that incentive for finding that

02:17:35 Paul Mcqueen: hunter to as required by the form to get compensation if you have multiple claims or more than one or two claims

02:17:45 Paul Mcqueen: then is that one more step of not qualifying for the provincial program as well which is as Brian said yes the sheep maybe aren't as much is still a loss is still part of your

02:17:59 Paul Mcqueen: income You know more so with cattle or

02:18:02 Paul Mcqueen: or beef animals with even as we know the place of the value there as well So I you know I sort of think that there is there is other means to keep this program in place and that's from a a

02:18:16 Paul Mcqueen: program or from a requirement from the province as well So I'll leave it at that But anyway I think it should stay It would be good that we did have a better idea what that would be from a cola perspective

02:18:29 Paul Mcqueen: of what that compensation would be today from when it originally started Thank you

02:18:34 SPEAKER_579: Thank you Paul So any more discussions

02:18:40 SPEAKER_579: So I saw a chat chance somewhere Thank you Brittany Yeah I apologize Chair That we will need a new mover for that motion as we just need to verify quorum members So if you could just get a new mover for

02:18:55 SPEAKER_328: that motion then we can proceed with carrying Okay all you Brittany I'll call for a mover for the motion

02:19:09 SPEAKER_328: Looks like member Gale R do will move the motion first Thank you Thank you Gail

02:19:16 SPEAKER_579: So we have a second already Does it please Sarah or Brittany Yep Yep Okay Thank you So call for the question Anybody opposed to the motion

02:19:28 SPEAKER_579: Hearing none Well carry Well the motion carries

02:19:36 SPEAKER_579: Thank you

02:19:37 SPEAKER_579: So leaning On on you again Brittany So we're proceeding to the next point Yep So our next item is item six just sector trends and challenges So I think this is just an open floor discussion Okay

02:19:56 SPEAKER_579: Are there any

02:19:59 SPEAKER_579: comments

02:20:01 SPEAKER_579: or

02:20:04 SPEAKER_579: maybe

02:20:06 SPEAKER_579: admonitions or

02:20:09 SPEAKER_579: praises to people our systems We're glad to entertain

02:20:16 SPEAKER_579: and

02:20:17 SPEAKER_579: maybe positive comments We like more than negative comments Let's put it that way Keith thank you You're going to ask Keith I will start with some positive news Just last night we had the Gray County Federation of Agriculture had the

02:20:33 SPEAKER_581: public speaking the 80th Annual there was 26 students did speeches and we had the mayor or yeah the warden of the of Gray County in attendance as one of the judges as well as the deputy

02:20:50 SPEAKER_581: mayor of Gray Highlands We appreciate their support and

02:20:54 SPEAKER_581: lots of because it's Gray Egg or the Gray Federation putting it on There's also awards for the best egg speech and there was quite a few topics that were in check with AG which is great to see and hear

02:21:10 SPEAKER_581: So another successful evening last night So just wanted to point that out

02:21:17 SPEAKER_579: Well thank you Keith And eventually we'll hear who the winners were

02:21:21 SPEAKER_581: The winners were announced last night I don't have the names in front of me but yeah there was top three It will likely be in the Rural Voice Okay the winners of that So look for that in the next issue

02:21:36 SPEAKER_579: Well thank you for you Endicott County Ag our FAI for the efforts that they give this public speaking contest Not only to promote or make the students

02:21:50 SPEAKER_579: feel comfortable with public speaking but also highlighting agriculture Gail you have your hand up there

02:21:58 SPEAKER_582: Ah yes thank you And I was wondering when I could raise this So putting my my town hat on here being the chair of our agricultural committee we will be hosting an event on April seventh and we are cohosting with

02:22:13 SPEAKER_582: the Blue Mountain Chamber of Commerce We had a very successful event last year and we had Keith Curry Canadian Federation of Agriculture and Dan Needles giving some comedy to our ag meeting

02:22:30 SPEAKER_582: and we are hosting that again this year April seventh from six to eight And if anybody would be interested in coming you can give me an email and I can put you on the list It's going It was pretty busy

02:22:43 SPEAKER_582: last year so I'm hoping it will be the same again We do have Keith Curry coming again but we are looking for somebody else to have some comedy as well And so that's one of the things that we've been doing

02:22:59 SPEAKER_582: but our chamber wanted to integrate with the ag community because you know we have a lot of agritourism happening in our town now So and they are not involved with the chamber It's just a way of you know broadening their

02:23:14 SPEAKER_582: aspect out there with the chamber to help promote their businesses And we have a lot of cideries who are new and we're just doing a helping hand to all and also I had an email from the

02:23:30 SPEAKER_582: Escarpment Corridor Alliance They're getting into agriculture too and I was just wondering if this group would be interested in having conversation with them or if they could be a guest speaker and you know just bring people up to speed on

02:23:47 SPEAKER_582: what the Escarpment Corridor is up to these days And

02:23:52 SPEAKER_582: I just didn't know if this group was be interested in having them speak at this forum

02:24:00 SPEAKER_579: So knowing very little about the group

02:24:04 SPEAKER_579: certainly

02:24:05 SPEAKER_579: maybe should just look into it a little bit And never hurts to broaden our horizon And maybe if you can make a maybe make a note about that we can look into that And thank you for your input

02:24:21 SPEAKER_579: there Gail And I see that Emily has heard hand up on the screen Do you go right there Emily

02:24:30 SPEAKER_594: Yeah Thank you I was just going to share an update from Gray Ag and the Experimental Acres program So just so everybody's aware Gray Ag Services is about halfway through our winter course program right now We have

02:24:45 SPEAKER_594: eight more courses to go coming up in the next month or two and next week we've got four actually going on and one that I wanted to highlight was a separating the grain from the chaff and soil health and regenerative

02:24:59 SPEAKER_594: agriculture webinar that's happening on Tuesday evening So if anybody's interested in participating in any of our workshops they're on our website and and we'd love to have you On the experimental acres side of things we had applications open through the

02:25:14 SPEAKER_594: month of February They just closed and I was happy that we have 20 very strong looking applications for that program so the applications have been sent out to the review committee to look at over the next week and a half

02:25:30 SPEAKER_594: and then we'll be having a review meeting and able to select those projects and notify participants by the end of April So or by the start of April Sorry So looking forward to getting moving with those projects and seeing what

02:25:43 SPEAKER_594: the participants do over the summer Thank you

02:25:47 SPEAKER_579: And thank you Emily for all the information And we should not I should I should look at the brochure and because there's couple things that probably are interest

02:25:59 SPEAKER_579: Thank you again Anybody else that has input information or whatever

02:26:12 SPEAKER_579: Going by the weather forecast spring is near so I'll probably see some chimneys smoke and boiling sap in the next couple days again so that's all good news And now it's done That I can turn it

02:26:28 SPEAKER_579: back to Brittany

02:26:30 SPEAKER_328: Okay so moving on to correspondence we don't have any on this agenda

02:26:36 SPEAKER_328: Any other business from any committee member

02:26:45 SPEAKER_328: Seeing none Yep Seeing none

02:26:49 SPEAKER_579: Just go by hearing here Brittany You go by seeing

02:26:54 SPEAKER_328: And just noting the next meeting date will be Thursday June eighteenth at nine am And then we can make a motion to adjourn So we'll need two members to make that motion Chair

02:27:08 SPEAKER_579: I'll ask I see Brian Mills hand up there and is another brave soul

02:27:17 SPEAKER_328: Do you see any Looks like we had member Diane Booker for the Okay thank you Diane

02:27:26 SPEAKER_579: Anybody Anybody opposed to this motion

02:27:31 SPEAKER_579: Hearing none Wishing you all the best in all the spring activities and

02:27:38 SPEAKER_579: safety in your work and travels and we'll see you in June and probably before

02:27:46 SPEAKER_596: Thank you all Take care all Thank you

02:27:50 SPEAKER_596: Thank you