Owen Sound Committee of Adjustment Meeting Transcript — March 3, 2026

00:00:19 Brian Green: One, two.

00:00:20 Brian Green: There we go.

00:00:21 Brian Green: Good afternoon.

00:00:21 Brian Green: It is three p.m.

00:00:22 Brian Green: I'd like to call this meeting to order.

00:00:25 Brian Green: I'd like to welcome everyone to the hearing today.

00:00:28 Brian Green: The Committee of Adjustment is appointed by Council to consider consent applications, applications for minor variances, and applications to the Zoning Bylaw.

00:00:38 Brian Green: Please be advised that any applicant agent that is in attendance today for the meeting for a specific application may leave the meeting once their application has been considered by the committee.

00:01:07 Brian Green: Any applicant agent or member of the public wishing to address the committee for a specific application may leave the meeting once the specific application is considered.

00:01:17 Brian Green: The committee is reminded that presentations are limited to ten minutes per person.

00:01:19 Brian Green: Okay, are there any additional items for the committee members or staff?

00:01:20 Brian Green: Seeing none, we'll move on.

00:01:21 Brian Green: Do any committee members have an interest arising out of the minutes of the last meeting listed on the agenda?

00:01:23 Brian Green: If so, please state the general nature thereof.

00:01:25 Brian Green: Seeing none, do any committee members have any comments or motions regarding the October twenty-eight, twenty-five minutes to be adopted today?

00:01:35 Brian Green: None.

00:01:36 Brian Green: I will call a vote.

00:01:37 Brian Green: All those in favour.

00:01:38 Brian Green: Oh, sorry, where's my motion?

00:01:43 SPEAKER_237: Yeah, if you can just turn off your mic and I'll turn mine off.

00:01:48 SPEAKER_237: Yes, Chair, I'd like to make a motion to accept the minutes of the October twenty-eighth, twenty-five meeting.

00:01:56 Brian Green: Thank you.

00:01:56 Brian Green: I'll call the vote.

00:01:57 Brian Green: All those in favour.

00:01:59 Brian Green: The motion is carried.

00:02:01 Brian Green: There are no correspondence items being presented for consideration.

00:02:05 Brian Green: Please be advised that the Planning Act of Ontario indicates that anyone other than the applicant agent who wishes to receive notice of a decision of the Committee of Adjustment, or in the event the committee defers the decision to a notice for further proceedings respecting the application, such person must leave their name and address in writing with the Secretary-Treasurer of the committee prior to leaving the hearing by filling out the signing sheet located on the table outside council chambers.

00:02:31 Brian Green: In addition, only the applicant, the Minister, or specified person or public body that has an interest in the matter has the right to appeal the decision of the Committee of Adjustment within the defined appeal period.

00:02:43 Brian Green: More information concerning how the appeal decision of the Committee of Adjustment and the Ontario Land Tribunal may be obtained from Community Services Planning Department at City Hall.

00:02:56 Brian Green: The Committee of Adjustment today will consider one minor variance application scheduled under applications.

00:03:02 Brian Green: The Planning Act requires that the public hearing be held before the Committee of Adjustment.

00:03:07 Brian Green: Before the Committee of Adjustment decides whether to approve the minor variance, the public hearing serves two purposes: first, to present the details and background of the application to the Committee of Adjustment and the public, and second, to receive comments from the public and agents before the decision is made.

00:03:28 Brian Green: For the application, the Secretary-Treasurer will summarize the proposal and the correspondence on file.

00:03:34 Brian Green: Planning division staff will provide other information that is relevant to the application.

00:03:38 Brian Green: From there, the applicant will provide the opportunity to make a presentation, followed by questions and presentations from the public, either in favour or in opposition to the application.

00:03:49 Brian Green: All questions should go through me, the Chair.

00:03:52 Brian Green: The presentations are limited to a maximum of ten minutes.

00:03:56 Brian Green: Committee members will then have the opportunity to question the applicant, the Secretary of Planning, or anyone giving presentations.

00:04:04 Brian Green: The application will then be considered by the committee.

00:04:07 Brian Green: Will the Secretary please advise how and when, and to whom, the notice of public hearings was circulated?

00:04:16 Briana Bloomfield 2: Through you, Mr. Chair.

00:04:18 Briana Bloomfield 2: Notice for this application was posted on the subject property on Wednesday, February eleven, two thousand and twenty-six, being at least fourteen days prior to the hearing.

00:04:26 Briana Bloomfield 2: Notice for this application was sent by mail to the assessed owners with notice by mail to the assessed owners within sixty meters of the subject property, and was also circulated to those persons, departments, and agencies likely to have an interest in the application, as legislated.

00:04:39 Briana Bloomfield 2: Included with the notice was a legal description of the subject property and a description of the purpose of the proposed minor variance.

00:04:45 Briana Bloomfield 2: The circulations were provided in accordance with the provisions of the Planning Act, R.S.O.

00:04:51 Briana Bloomfield 2: 1990, Chapter P.13.

00:04:51 Brian Green: Thank you very much.

00:04:53 Brian Green: I will now declare this to be a public hearing for application A-01-2026.

00:04:57 Brian Green: Miss Landry, would you please summarize the application and any correspondence received to date?

00:05:02 Brian Green: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

00:05:15 Briana Bloomfield 2: This is a minor variance application that was put forward by Ron Davidson Land Use Planning on behalf of Blue Stone Realty Corp. The official land designation is residential, and it is zoned as General Residential R-5.

00:05:24 Briana Bloomfield 2: The legal description of the lands is South Part Lot Three, Stage North Part Lot 3, Stavely E.S., North Part Lot 3, Stavely E.S., South Part Lot 4, Stavely E.S., City of Owen Sound, County of Grey, and it is more nearly situated as sixteen thirty-seven, sixteen forty-one, and sixteen fifty-five Ninth Avenue East.

00:05:53 Briana Bloomfield 2: The applicant is proposing to demolish the existing single detached dwellings on the subject lands to facilitate the construction of a four-storey, twenty-eight hundred forty-seven square metre medical clinic.

00:06:03 Briana Bloomfield 2: A minor variance is requested to provide relief from Zoning Bylaw 2010-078 as amended for the rear yard setback.

00:06:05 Briana Bloomfield 2: Seven metres is required.

00:06:05 Briana Bloomfield 2: Three point two metres is proposed, resulting in a variance of three point eight metres.

00:06:07 Briana Bloomfield 2: Building height ten metres is required.

00:06:08 Briana Bloomfield 2: Fourteen point one metres is proposed, resulting in a variance of four point one metres.

00:06:10 Briana Bloomfield 2: Off-street parking one hundred two spaces are required.

00:06:11 Briana Bloomfield 2: Fifty-six spaces are proposed, resulting in a variance of forty-six spaces.

00:06:13 Briana Bloomfield 2: A variance of forty-six spaces, accessible parking.

00:06:18 Briana Bloomfield 2: Fifty-six spaces are required.

00:06:20 Briana Bloomfield 2: Four spaces are proposed, resulting in a variance of one space, and rear yard setback for an outdoor waste receptacle/storage area.

00:06:28 Briana Bloomfield 2: Seven metres is required.

00:06:29 Briana Bloomfield 2: One and a half metres is proposed, resulting in a variance of five and a half metres.

00:06:34 Briana Bloomfield 2: Comments have been received without objection from the City's Building Division and Public Works and Engineering Division, Niagara Escarpment Commission, Canada Post, Bell Canada, Saugeen Ojibway Nation Environmental Office, and the County of Grey.

00:06:47 Briana Bloomfield 2: Comments were received after the agenda was published but prior to the deadline from the Grey Sable Conservation Authority, noting that they had no concerns with the application.

00:06:55 Briana Bloomfield 2: These comments will be included with the agenda when it is republished.

00:06:59 Brian Green: Thank you very much.

00:07:00 Brian Green: Planning staff, will you please provide any additional information that may be relevant?

00:07:08 SPEAKER_208: Thank you, Mr. Chair, and through you, the lands subject to the requested variance are shown on the orthophoto before you.

00:07:16 SPEAKER_208: The lands are located on the east side of Ninth Avenue East, approximately eighty-four meters north of the intersection of Ninth Avenue and Sixteenth Street East.

00:07:25 SPEAKER_208: The lands currently comprise three separate parcels with a total area of three thousand seven hundred and eighteen square meters and fifty-three meters of frontage on Ninth Avenue East.

00:07:34 SPEAKER_208: The lands currently contain three single-detached dwellings and related accessory structures, which will be demolished and the parcels merged on title to facilitate the development of a four-story, two thousand eight hundred and forty-seven square meter medical clinic.

00:07:47 SPEAKER_208: As noted by the Secretary-Treasurer, variances to the minimum rear yard setback and maximum building height provisions for commercial uses within the general residential R-5 zone, required off-street and accessible parking and minimum rear yard setback for an outdoor waste receptacle are being requested.

00:08:05 SPEAKER_208: Amherst notes that at the time of notice of application and hearing was given for the requested variance, fifty-seven off-street parking spaces were noted as being provided, resulting in a variance of forty-five spaces.

00:08:19 SPEAKER_208: Comments have been received from the city's engineering services division, which indicate that one off-street parking stall on the submitted site plan shown before you is located within a five-meter road allowance widening that will be conveyed to the city as part of a future site plan approval application.

00:08:36 SPEAKER_208: Comments received from engineering services recommend that the parking space be removed and fifty-six off-street parking spaces be reflected in the requested variance.

00:08:45 SPEAKER_208: Planning staff's analysis of the requested reduction in required parking considers fifty-six spaces, as is outlined in the staff recommendation report before you.

00:08:55 SPEAKER_208: The reduction in one additional parking space has arisen out of review of the application by internal staff and was not known at the time of notice of application and hearing.

00:09:05 SPEAKER_208: However, in the opinion of planning staff, the proposal remains consistent with the notice given, as it is to facilitate a reduction in the off-street parking ratio for the proposed clinic.

00:09:17 SPEAKER_208: As stipulated by section forty-five of the Planning Act, a minor variance may be authorized by the Committee of Adjustment, provided that the four tests of a variance are met.

00:09:25 SPEAKER_208: The variance must be in conformity with the city's official plan, maintain the general intent and purpose of the zoning bylaw, be minor in nature and desirable for the development and use of the lands, as well.

00:09:35 SPEAKER_208: All decisions with respect to a planning matter are required to be consistent with the provincial planning statement.

00:09:40 SPEAKER_208: The subject lands are within an existing settlement area and have access to full municipal services, including water, wastewater, transit, and active transportation infrastructure.

00:09:50 SPEAKER_208: The proposal represents redevelopment and intensification within an existing mixed-use built-up area of the city that is consistent with and supported by the policies of the PPS.

00:10:00 SPEAKER_208: As it relates to conformity with the city's official plan, the lands are designated residential by the city's two thousand and twenty-one official plan.

00:10:08 SPEAKER_208: Secondary uses of a non-residential nature, known as local institutional uses, are considered compatible or form part of a residential area are permitted within the residential designation.

00:10:21 SPEAKER_208: Local institutional uses are generally to be located along arterial roads with access to public transit and full municipal services.

00:10:29 SPEAKER_208: The proposed clinic is a local institutional use that is considered compatible with and provides service to the residential area.

00:10:36 SPEAKER_208: The lands are located along Ninth Avenue East, which is designated as a minor arterial road by the transportation plan of the city's official plan, the lands have access to the city's East Bayshore and core transit routes and full municipal services.

00:10:50 SPEAKER_208: Policy three one three two of the official plan provides criteria for local institutional uses within the residential designation, including that the local institutional use does not introduce unwanted and inappropriate impacts on residential uses.

00:11:05 SPEAKER_208: The outward appearance, scale, and design of the local institutional use be compatible with the character of the area, and local institutional uses be limited in size, scale, and location through the zoning bylaw, as described in the staff recommendation report before you.

00:11:21 SPEAKER_208: The proposed development satisfies the required criteria.

00:11:25 SPEAKER_208: As it relates to the requested variance for minimum rear yard setbacks of the proposed building and garbage enclosure, the urban design policies of the city's official plans state that the city may define within any development area building heights and setbacks that are consistent with the intended form of development.

00:11:43 SPEAKER_208: So, as shown on the screen before you, the rear yard of the subject lands abuts a portion of the rear yard of the LCBO site, containing landscaping and a private driveway that provides access into the LCBO.

00:11:59 SPEAKER_208: A private driveway into the Zaire's Plaza, shown here, shown there, and this is the driveway into the LCBO site.

00:12:08 SPEAKER_208: The driveway serves to provide access to abutting properties and does not have a defined streetscape.

00:12:18 SPEAKER_208: Therefore, there are no negative impacts anticipated as a result of the reduced rear yard setback for the clinic building that will essentially allow the building to be located closer to the driveway and landscaped area shown on the screen here.

00:12:35 SPEAKER_208: The proposed siting of the building generally conforms to the official plan, including that the building is located in proximity to Ninth Avenue East, with parking located predominantly in the side yard to create an attractive street edge.

00:12:50 SPEAKER_208: The building is oriented within the southern portion of the site, abutting the existing LCBO, in order to maximize separation between the proposed building and residential uses to the north.

00:13:02 SPEAKER_208: The requested reduction in the required rear yard setback for the outdoor waste enclosure within the northeast corner of the site is technical in nature, as it results from the technical application of Section 524C of the Zoning Bylaw, which requires that outdoor waste storage areas be regulated the same as accessory buildings and structures.

00:13:14 SPEAKER_208: The proposed outdoor waste enclosure is appropriately sited, as it is located adjacent to the required loading space, with adequate spatial separation from adjacent residential uses to the north.

00:13:35 SPEAKER_208: Buffering and screening of this area will be for the review through a future site plan approval application.

00:13:41 SPEAKER_208: As it relates to the requested variance for maximum permitted building height, the policies of the city's official plan require that the city consider the potential impact of abrupt changes in building height and scale on surrounding uses and protected views.

00:13:55 SPEAKER_208: A shadow impact analysis was submitted in support of the requested variance and is attached as Schedule D to the staff report.

00:14:02 SPEAKER_208: The shadow impact analysis was prepared in accordance with the city's shadow study criteria and demonstrates that in no case is fifty percent or more of any property shaded for more than two interval times or a four-hour equivalency.

00:14:17 SPEAKER_208: Lastly, as it relates to the requested reduction in required off-street parking, the policies of the city's official plan require that all new development be required to provide adequate off-street parking and loading in accordance with the standards established in the zoning bylaw.

00:14:31 SPEAKER_208: The design of the proposed off-street parking area will be further reviewed through future site plan approval application.

00:14:36 SPEAKER_208: However, it generally conforms to the urban design policies of the official plan as it has been presented.

00:14:46 SPEAKER_208: The proposal therefore conforms to the policies of the city's OP.

00:14:48 SPEAKER_208: As it relates to maintaining the general intent and purpose of the city's zoning bylaw, the lands are zoned general residential R-5, which permits among other uses a clinic.

00:14:49 SPEAKER_208: The general intent and purpose of the setback provisions of the zoning bylaw are to ensure compatible built form and that sufficient area remains on the property to provide certain amenities such as parking and landscaped open space, as described in the staff report before you.

00:15:11 SPEAKER_208: The requested reduction in the required rear yard setback for the proposed clinic building and the outdoor waste enclosure maintain consistent with the general intent and purpose of the bylaw.

00:15:22 SPEAKER_208: Similarly, the maximum building height provisions of the zoning bylaw are to ensure a compatible built form, and the submitted shadow study demonstrates that the requested increase in building height is compatible with the surrounding neighborhood.

00:15:35 SPEAKER_208: The off-street parking provisions of the zoning bylaw implement the policies of the city's official plan and generally are intended to ensure that adequate off-street parking is provided at a ratio that is aligned with the size or gross floor area of the proposed use.

00:15:52 SPEAKER_208: The proposed development consists of a clinic, as defined by the zoning bylaw.

00:15:56 SPEAKER_208: However, section 518 of the bylaw does not provide a minimum off-street parking requirement for this type of use.

00:16:03 SPEAKER_208: The bylaw does provide a minimum off-street parking requirement for a medical center and a business or professional office, which would require either 171 or 102 spaces to be provided for the proposed development.

00:16:17 SPEAKER_208: The development will provide a total of 56 spaces, including four accessible stalls, which does not conform to either parking standard.

00:16:26 SPEAKER_208: A planning justification report, including a parking analysis, has been submitted in support of the requested parking reduction, and the parking analysis recommends consideration of the use and function of the proposed clinic for informing the requested reduction in parking.

00:16:42 SPEAKER_208: And planning staff concur with the submitted study, as described in the recommendation report before you.

00:16:48 SPEAKER_208: The use and function of the proposed clinic is predominantly administrative, and includes conducting consultation and providing office space for specialist doctors and their staff.

00:16:59 SPEAKER_208: The building will accommodate up to 20 specialists who will also be working within the Owen Sound Hospital, performing surgery and other medical procedures, and will stagger their in-office time at the proposed clinic, such that there are only four doctors working at any given time.

00:17:15 SPEAKER_208: The submitted parking analysis demonstrates the clinic would require 37 off-street parking spaces on any given day for specialists, doctors, nurses, administrative staff, and patients.

00:17:26 SPEAKER_208: Therefore, the proposed 56 spaces are sufficient for accommodating the intended use of the building.

00:17:31 SPEAKER_208: It does merit note that the parking provisions of the city zoning bylaw cannot anticipate the variety of clinics and medical offices that exist.

00:17:41 SPEAKER_208: So generally, the existing parking provisions for a medical center and a professional office are to serve the worst-case scenario or the highest intensity of land use.

00:17:53 SPEAKER_208: The requested reduction in the minimum number of accessible parking spaces, five are required by the bylaw, whereas four will be provided.

00:18:02 SPEAKER_208: Our tech is technical in nature, as it results from the application of Section 518.6 of the Zoning Bylaw, which states that where the calculation of off-street parking results in a fraction, the number of parking stalls to be provided be rounded to the next highest whole number.

00:18:21 SPEAKER_208: The development will provide four accessible spaces in proximity to the main entrance of the building, and through a future site plan approval application, staff will ensure that the design and signage of the accessible stalls meets the requirements.

00:18:31 SPEAKER_208: The proposal maintains the general intent and purpose of the city zoning bylaw.

00:18:41 SPEAKER_208: In terms of minor in nature, the test for minor in nature is considered in terms of impact of the proposed development on surrounding land uses and the streetscape.

00:18:53 SPEAKER_208: As discussed in the recommendation report before you, the shadow study submitted in support of the application demonstrates no negative impact to surrounding properties as a result of the proposed increase in building height, and similarly, the reduction in the required rear yard setbacks are not anticipated to have a negative impact on surrounding properties or the streetscape.

00:19:13 SPEAKER_208: It does merit note that the proposed clinic currently operates elsewhere in the city in combination with other higher intensity land uses, including a restaurant and a variety of retail stores, without negative impact.

00:19:25 SPEAKER_208: So, in consideration of that, the proposal is deemed to be minor in nature.

00:19:31 SPEAKER_208: Lastly, the proposed development represents redevelopment and intensification within a settlement area that is supported by the policies of the provincial planning statement and the city's official plan.

00:19:32 SPEAKER_208: The general appearance of the street frontage for the property will be improved with the addition of the proposed building, together with landscaping and pedestrian connections to the city street.

00:19:56 SPEAKER_208: And shown before you are some of the renderings of the proposed development that have been submitted in support of the application that generally illustrate an attractive built form together with a variety of landscaping.

00:20:11 SPEAKER_208: The proposed development will also support the optimization of public service facilities within the city by allowing specialist doctors to relocate their private office outside of the Owen Sound Hospital and free up the space for patient and medical services.

00:20:27 SPEAKER_208: So, in conclusion, staff are recommending that, in consideration of report CS-26-014, respecting minor variance A-01-2026 by Ron Davidson Land Use Planning on behalf of Bluestone Realty Corp, for property known as 1637, 1641 and 1655 Ninth Avenue East.

00:20:46 SPEAKER_208: The Committee of Adjustment approves the minor variance as the Committee concludes that the requested variance maintains the general intent and purpose of the city's official plan and zoning bylaw, is minor in nature and desirable for the development and use of the lands, subject to the conditions outlined in Schedule E. Thank you.

00:20:56 SPEAKER_208: Thank you very much.

00:20:57 SPEAKER_208: Obviously, planning staff has put a lot of work into this, which we appreciate.

00:20:58 SPEAKER_208: And does the applicant or agent for A-01-2026 have a presentation they wish to make?

00:21:00 SPEAKER_208: Every time, Ron Davidson, planning consultant.

00:21:01 SPEAKER_208: I filed the application on behalf of the owner.

00:21:03 SPEAKER_208: The owner is here with us.

00:21:06 SPEAKER_208: It's Dr. Costa.

00:21:08 Brian Green: He's an orthopedic surgeon here in Owen Sound.

00:21:10 Brian Green: I don't have a whole lot to say.

00:21:15 Brian Green: Just maybe fill in just a couple blanks.

00:21:18 Brian Green: Jackie did a bang-up job explaining everything.

00:21:30 SPEAKER_238: I know that probably the biggest concern, at least on paper, may have been parking.

00:21:39 SPEAKER_238: But as you heard, this is going to be a Monday to Friday, nine to five clinic.

00:21:41 SPEAKER_238: The specialists are going to show up one day a week, so it's, it's, it's not the parking; it should not be considered to be an issue.

00:21:45 SPEAKER_238: But as you heard, yeah, Dr. Costa and four others currently rent elsewhere.

00:21:49 SPEAKER_238: They're in the Northtown Plaza.

00:22:10 SPEAKER_238: If you want to know where they are, above the Butternut Blade restaurant, and and their Dr. Costa feels you know a better, bigger, nicer building would be more appropriate, and one where all the doctors can be under one roof.

00:22:19 SPEAKER_238: Not only the four or five that are in the existing building, but others as well.

00:22:28 SPEAKER_238: As you heard from Jackie, the Old Town Hospital does accommodate some of the specialists right now, having their own private offices, and they would like them to move out so they can provide other types of services within the hospital, and that seems to make sense.

00:22:43 SPEAKER_238: So, Dr. Costa is trying to fill a void here, if you will, by putting up a brand new four-story building.

00:22:49 SPEAKER_238: There will be about twenty specialists.

00:22:50 SPEAKER_238: He's hoping that will occupy the building, and like I said, they'll be there about a day a week.

00:22:52 SPEAKER_238: Yeah, I mean, I'm not going to go through anything with regard to the four tests of the Planning Act.

00:22:54 SPEAKER_238: Jackie did a bang-up job.

00:22:56 SPEAKER_238: I did the same in my own planning report.

00:23:06 SPEAKER_238: Just in general, I think this represents a an excellent use of the subject property.

00:23:07 SPEAKER_238: Jack indicated it would be an improvement to the landscape.

00:23:10 SPEAKER_238: I think you saw the pictures, and if you drive by now and you drive by after it's been built, I think you'll, you'll agree without insulting anybody here.

00:23:27 SPEAKER_238: And it's really just a not necessarily a planning thing, but it's, it's just a nice proposal.

00:23:36 SPEAKER_238: It's going to be appropriate not only for the twenty or so doctors, but for the whole community where they can go into a building.

00:23:40 SPEAKER_238: Everybody's going to become familiar with this building as opposed to trying to find out exactly where these surgeons are scattered all over town.

00:23:47 SPEAKER_238: And I think, in my own mind, anyways, it'll also assist in attracting other medical specialists to Owen Sound in the future.

00:23:49 SPEAKER_238: That always seems to be a problem in rural Ontario, and hopefully that that helps.

00:23:51 SPEAKER_238: So in this, in my mind, this is just a very nice project for the city.

00:23:53 SPEAKER_238: Thank you.

00:23:53 SPEAKER_238: Thank you very much, Ron.

00:23:54 SPEAKER_238: Being an ex-chief building official, I'm going to pass it on to the chief building official at the back there.

00:23:58 SPEAKER_238: And wondering if he's spoken to Ron about spatial separations.

00:24:15 Brian Green: It would be nice to have some windows on the south side to take advantage of that sun, but with the spatial separation, you might be limited to the number of windows you can have there.

00:24:25 Brian Green: Just a thought.

00:24:25 Brian Green: Are there any questions?

00:24:26 Brian Green: Oh, there's no public here, so we go on.

00:24:27 Brian Green: Are there any further questions or comments from the committee to the applicant, the secretary treasurer, or the planning staff, or any persons that made a presentation?

00:24:30 Brian Green: Seeing none.

00:24:36 Brian Green: No comments.

00:24:40 Brian Green: Okay.

00:24:40 Brian Green: Does any member of the committee wish to make a motion on application A-01-2026?

00:24:42 Brian Green: Yes, Chair.

00:24:42 Brian Green: I'd like to make a motion to approve A-01-2026.

00:24:44 Brian Green: Was that the number?

00:24:44 Brian Green: Sorry, subject to the.

00:24:45 Brian Green: I've lost the word.

00:24:46 Brian Green: Conditions.

00:24:46 Brian Green: I should know that.

00:24:47 Brian Green: Subject to the conditions.

00:24:49 Brian Green: Thank you very much.

00:24:51 Brian Green: I'll, I'll call a vote.

00:24:54 Brian Green: All those in favour.

00:24:55 Brian Green: The motion is carried.

00:25:34 Brian Green: Please be advised that there is a twenty day appeal period during which time the applicant, the minister, or specified persons or public body that has an interest in the matter may appeal today's decision.

00:25:43 Brian Green: During that appeal period, no building permit may be issued or the work commenced.

00:25:45 Brian Green: I now declare public.

00:25:46 Brian Green: Now we declare public hearing A-01-2026 to be concluded.

00:25:47 Brian Green: The applicants may leave the building if they wish to do so.

00:25:49 Brian Green: There is no correspondence.

00:25:50 Brian Green: Item has been presented for information.

00:25:51 Brian Green: Sorry, through you, Mr. Chair.

00:25:52 Brian Green: I wonder if the committee would be okay with skipping to item 9B, since Mr. Treslin is here now, and then I can do my presentation following his.

00:25:56 Brian Green: Very good.

00:25:57 Brian Green: 9B, okay.

00:26:50 Brian Green: Harold Treslin, the Alliance lawyer, will now provide a presentation to Property Standards Committee.

00:26:55 Brian Green: Welcome, Mr. Treslin.

00:26:56 Brian Green: Thank you.

00:26:56 Brian Green: There we go.

00:26:57 Brian Green: You can hear me, okay?

00:26:58 Brian Green: Great.

00:27:07 SPEAKER_239: So I gather that you folks have a property standards appeal coming up, and I also gather that you, with the exception of Brian, probably haven't had any experience in that process.

00:27:19 SPEAKER_239: So I've been asked to come in on somewhat short notice, only because if I had a little bit more time, I know they would have liked for me to have a handout for you.

00:27:29 SPEAKER_239: So instead of giving you a handout, I'm going to go through what I think are the high points.

00:27:34 SPEAKER_239: I know Brian's not unfamiliar with the procedure, so if he wants to jump in at any point, any of you can jump in at any point in time.

00:27:42 SPEAKER_239: So I'm just just going to move right into the appeal.

00:27:44 SPEAKER_239: So you folks will be sitting essentially as a court of first hearing on this appeal.

00:27:46 SPEAKER_239: The order, obviously, you should familiarize yourself with the order that's under appeal.

00:27:48 SPEAKER_239: You owe that order no deference.

00:27:49 SPEAKER_239: So you can confirm the order; you don't have to change it, but you can rescind it, you can modify it, you can basically do whatever you want.

00:27:53 SPEAKER_239: You are the court that will determine how that order.

00:28:18 SPEAKER_239: So once somebody appeals it, that immediately triggers it, brings it before you, and they get essentially another kick at the can.

00:28:26 SPEAKER_239: As you may be aware, it's very simple under the Building Code Act.

00:28:28 SPEAKER_239: You folks will hear the appeal on an appeal.

00:28:31 SPEAKER_239: The committee has all the powers and functions of the officer, the bylaw enforcement officer, who made that order, and the committee can confirm, modify, rescind, or extend the time required for complying with the order.

00:28:40 SPEAKER_239: I do not believe I could stand corrected.

00:28:42 SPEAKER_239: I don't believe that you guys have formal rules of procedure to govern your own appeals.

00:28:43 SPEAKER_239: What that means is you are governed by the Statutory Powers Procedure Act.

00:29:04 SPEAKER_239: I'm going to quickly go through that and just highlight the points that I think are relevant for this appeal.

00:29:10 SPEAKER_239: But before I do that, I just want to talk generally about how you go about doing this.

00:29:12 SPEAKER_239: It's okay to be casual, but not too casual.

00:29:13 SPEAKER_239: The way I recommend you proceed is that once you call the appeal to order.

00:29:15 SPEAKER_239: The first person you should hear from is the bylaw officer.

00:29:17 SPEAKER_239: You should ask the bylaw officer just to explain why the order was entered, and to provide you with any relevant material that the city, through the bylaw officer, thinks is relevant.

00:29:24 SPEAKER_239: But this is not the city's case; it's the appellant's case.

00:29:27 SPEAKER_239: But I think I think it's fair to do it that way.

00:29:52 SPEAKER_239: And when you allow the bylaw enforcement officer to explain why he or she issued the order, you should make sure that the appellant doesn't interrupt.

00:30:01 SPEAKER_239: But once the bylaw officer is done, the appellant should be given the opportunity to cross-examine, ask that witness any questions.

00:30:03 SPEAKER_239: This is where you guys need to, you know, you're dealing probably with someone who doesn't have a lawyer.

00:30:05 SPEAKER_239: They could show up with a lawyer.

00:30:06 SPEAKER_239: They have the right to show up with a lawyer.

00:30:18 SPEAKER_239: They have the right to show up with a lawyer, but just make sure that they're not leading the witness, that they're not suggesting the answer to the witness, because they may do it intentionally.

00:30:27 SPEAKER_239: They may do it unintentionally.

00:30:28 SPEAKER_239: So you go ahead.

00:30:29 SPEAKER_239: Just two quick points.

00:30:30 SPEAKER_239: It's been the practice to swear someone in.

00:30:32 Brian Green: You and I discussed this before, and I don't see the point of swearing somebody in because if they lie after they've been sworn in, we don't have the authority or the manpower to say perjury and take it further.

00:30:41 Brian Green: What do you do?

00:30:42 Brian Green: And actually, I...

00:30:43 Brian Green: Sorry.

00:30:43 Brian Green: Sorry, that's the way it works.

00:30:47 Brian Green: You definitely should swear them in.

00:30:48 Brian Green: I recommend that you just ask them to affirm.

00:30:57 SPEAKER_239: Do you promise that everything you say is going to be true?

00:31:07 SPEAKER_239: Right?

00:31:07 SPEAKER_239: If they want to, I don't know.

00:31:08 SPEAKER_239: Do we have a Bible here?

00:31:15 SPEAKER_239: If they want to swear in the Bible, they can swear in the Bible.

00:31:20 SPEAKER_239: Under no circumstances are we going to get into this.

00:31:22 SPEAKER_239: I'm going to just very quickly take you through the Statutory Powers and Procedures Act.

00:31:24 SPEAKER_239: I don't care if the person gets on the desk and defecates.

00:31:26 SPEAKER_239: Do not use your contempt power.

00:31:27 SPEAKER_239: You just leave the room, right?

00:31:28 SPEAKER_239: The reason why I say that is when judges go to Superior Court Judge School, they're told the exact same thing: never, ever, ever use your contempt powers.

00:31:35 SPEAKER_239: You guys, you guys actually do have some powers under this, but just don't go there.

00:31:37 SPEAKER_239: If you need to, if you need to shut down a proceeding, just shut it down.

00:31:39 SPEAKER_239: If you have any questions, I wanted to make sure.

00:31:51 SPEAKER_239: If you have any questions during the appeal hearing, will it be happening during office hours, or will it be happening in the evening?

00:32:00 SPEAKER_239: Yeah.

00:32:00 SPEAKER_239: So I will make sure that you have my direct line.

00:32:02 SPEAKER_239: There's absolutely nothing wrong with you taking a recess if you want to ask me a question.

00:32:04 SPEAKER_239: Nothing wrong with that.

00:32:07 SPEAKER_239: You can, at any point during your deliberations during the hearing, take a recess for whatever reason, which may be to call the lawyer because we don't know what to do with this.

00:32:17 SPEAKER_239: Okay, that's not unusual, and in fact, in superior courts, judges will do it all the time.

00:32:28 SPEAKER_239: They won't call the lawyer; they'll call one of their fellow judges and say, "I don't know what to do with this," and it's... it's... there's nothing wrong with you doing that.

00:32:36 SPEAKER_239: So, as far as you should have each witness sworn.

00:32:38 SPEAKER_239: The one thing I want you folks to remember is that you have control over your own processes.

00:32:40 SPEAKER_239: If somebody shows up here with ten witnesses, you don't have to hear ten witnesses.

00:32:42 SPEAKER_239: You can say, "Why are you calling these witnesses?

00:32:43 SPEAKER_239: What do you intend to prove?"

00:32:44 SPEAKER_239: Well, I don't think you need to call ten witnesses.

00:32:59 SPEAKER_239: We're going to allow you to call two witnesses on that point, so you have the power to make decisions relating to the proceedings before you.

00:33:09 SPEAKER_239: After you hear from the bylaw officer, after the person, the appellant has been offered the opportunity.

00:33:10 SPEAKER_239: Do you have any questions for the bylaw officer based on what you heard?

00:33:12 SPEAKER_239: Then they are allowed to present their case.

00:33:21 SPEAKER_239: Then it gets a bit weird because unless they have a lawyer, they're here standing.

00:33:29 SPEAKER_239: They're basically an advocate and a witness at the same time.

00:33:30 SPEAKER_239: So you need to caution them.

00:33:31 SPEAKER_239: Please don't give us your argument now.

00:33:33 SPEAKER_239: Just tell us the facts that you want us to rely on.

00:33:39 SPEAKER_239: You'll be given an opportunity at the end to make an argument to give us your submissions.

00:33:44 SPEAKER_239: So what evidence do you want us to rely on?

00:33:45 SPEAKER_239: Because this is where they'll need some help because they won't understand the difference.

00:33:47 SPEAKER_239: But in order for you folks to make any decision, you need facts.

00:33:49 SPEAKER_239: Right?

00:33:49 SPEAKER_239: So they can give evidence on their own behalf.

00:33:51 SPEAKER_239: They can call witnesses and ask their witnesses questions.

00:33:52 SPEAKER_239: And once they've presented their evidence, the city has the right to reply if anything new has come up.

00:34:03 SPEAKER_239: And that's where... because this is a bit strange because I don't think... correct me if I'm wrong... the city's not going to have a paralegal present.

00:34:21 Briana Bloomfield 2: We will have a paralegal representing the city, and we do have a procedure that states that the appellant and the city both have to provide their disclosure package to me so many days in advance of the hearing, and then it gets included on the agenda.

00:34:31 Briana Bloomfield 2: So I actually had a question about that.

00:34:39 Briana Bloomfield 2: If one of the parties does not provide their disclosure package by the deadline, does that mean that if they come to the hearing with... like... hand... like evidence, paper format of some type of evidence, is the committee to say sorry, we can't accept that because you missed the deadline?

00:34:48 Briana Bloomfield 2: That's a good question.

00:34:49 Briana Bloomfield 2: You want to bend over backwards to give the appellant a fair hearing.

00:35:06 SPEAKER_239: I would be far less willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the paralegal who's representing the city.

00:35:12 SPEAKER_239: So they should get you their stuff, and I think the answer to your question is it all depends on what additional material.

00:35:19 SPEAKER_239: If that's just one thing, I mean, again, you have the power; it's your call, right?

00:35:21 SPEAKER_239: So they can refuse it or you can admit it.

00:35:23 SPEAKER_239: I would recommend again bending over backwards to give the person a fair hearing.

00:35:30 SPEAKER_239: Let them have their say.

00:35:35 SPEAKER_239: Again, so they will have heard the city present their explanation, give you an overview of why the order was issued and what the city relied on.

00:35:43 SPEAKER_239: Here's our photographs.

00:35:44 SPEAKER_239: Here's what we did.

00:35:44 SPEAKER_239: You'll hear their evidence.

00:35:45 SPEAKER_239: Then you'll offer the city.

00:35:46 SPEAKER_239: Do you have?

00:35:46 SPEAKER_239: Do you want to reply to anything you've heard?

00:35:48 SPEAKER_239: Okay.

00:35:48 SPEAKER_239: And but that's not a free for all.

00:35:50 SPEAKER_239: That's not a chance to just go again.

00:35:51 SPEAKER_239: So you know you need to say, have you heard anything that you weren't otherwise prepared to tell us at the beginning?

00:35:53 SPEAKER_239: And then they can explain to you.

00:35:54 SPEAKER_239: So just don't... don't give... don't let them go off on a tangent.

00:35:56 SPEAKER_239: Okay.

00:35:57 SPEAKER_239: And then after you've received all the evidence, then you'll receive the submissions.

00:36:00 SPEAKER_239: That's the argument, and that's where the appellant should go first.

00:36:03 SPEAKER_239: It's their appeal.

00:36:03 SPEAKER_239: And then after they give you their submissions, then the paralegal on behalf of the city will give you their submissions.

00:36:10 SPEAKER_239: Now again, the person who started does have a right to reply.

00:36:14 SPEAKER_239: So technically, the appellant has a right to reply to what the city says, but only if it's something that they couldn't have anticipated to begin with.

00:36:25 SPEAKER_239: So I've been practicing law for thirty-four years.

00:36:45 SPEAKER_239: I've done innumerable trials, and I have, first of all, never called reply evidence, not once, and I probably have only on one hand given a reply submission because unless you're caught by surprise, you're not allowed to reply in argument.

00:36:54 SPEAKER_239: So any questions before I get into the Statutory Powers and Procedures Act, which is what governs?

00:36:56 SPEAKER_239: It's an easy act.

00:36:57 SPEAKER_239: It's...

00:36:57 SPEAKER_239: I mean it's... it's available online.

00:36:58 SPEAKER_239: It's only about thirty-three sections.

00:36:59 SPEAKER_239: I'm not going to go through thirty-three sections with you.

00:37:08 SPEAKER_239: I am going to highlight the things that I think are important on any appeal that you're dealing with.

00:37:18 SPEAKER_239: This act applies to your appeal.

00:37:19 SPEAKER_239: Any requirement can be waived if you guys agree and everybody in front of you agrees.

00:37:21 SPEAKER_239: That goes without saying.

00:37:21 SPEAKER_239: If the parties consent, it says a proceeding can be disposed without a hearing.

00:37:24 SPEAKER_239: I don't think that's going to apply here.

00:37:43 SPEAKER_239: You do have the right not to proceed with the hearing if the documents are incomplete, which is what you raised earlier.

00:37:53 SPEAKER_239: You have the right.

00:37:54 SPEAKER_239: You don't, but I recommend that you let it unless someone is irreparably prejudiced.

00:37:55 SPEAKER_239: Just let it go.

00:38:08 SPEAKER_239: You have the right to dismiss an appeal without a hearing if you determine that it's B.S., you do not have to have a hearing.

00:38:17 SPEAKER_239: But you need to be able to determine that the proceeding is frivolous, vexatious, or has been commenced in bad faith.

00:38:19 SPEAKER_239: It's a very high standard.

00:38:20 SPEAKER_239: So, I again, I would... you have the power to do it.

00:38:22 SPEAKER_239: I would exercise that right very sparingly.

00:38:23 SPEAKER_239: You can.

00:38:23 SPEAKER_239: I just want to keep in the back of your mind.

00:38:25 SPEAKER_239: You have the power to direct the parties to participate in an alternative dispute resolution.

00:38:30 SPEAKER_239: You could literally tell them you want to get a mediator involved.

00:38:34 SPEAKER_239: Again, I don't know if you could, but I just want you to be aware you have the power to do that.

00:38:44 SPEAKER_239: You have the power to direct that the matter proceed in writing or electronically.

00:38:54 SPEAKER_239: This one... that schedule...

00:38:55 SPEAKER_239: I take it is happening in person.

00:38:56 SPEAKER_239: It will be like the committee.

00:38:57 SPEAKER_239: Most of the committee would be in person, and the appellant has requested to join electronically.

00:38:59 SPEAKER_239: Great.

00:38:59 SPEAKER_239: You have the power, despite what the city's done.

00:39:01 SPEAKER_239: You have the power to order the exchange of documents.

00:39:03 SPEAKER_239: You have the power to order somebody to be questioned.

00:39:07 SPEAKER_239: You have the power to order there be an exchange of witness statements.

00:39:12 SPEAKER_239: You've got a lot of power.

00:39:16 SPEAKER_239: I'm assuming that we've satisfied the oral hearing requirements.

00:39:36 SPEAKER_239: There's been a written notice stating the date and time and place and purpose of the hearing.

00:39:46 SPEAKER_239: If somebody doesn't show up, and you're satisfied they have notice, you can toss it.

00:39:48 SPEAKER_239: Now, this is this is an interesting one.

00:39:49 SPEAKER_239: Where the good character, propriety of conduct, or competence of a party is at issue.

00:39:51 SPEAKER_239: The party is entitled to be furnished prior to the hearing with reasonable information of those allegations.

00:39:53 SPEAKER_239: So, this is an above board.

00:39:54 SPEAKER_239: If if if someone wants to get down into the mud, remember that Section Eight of the Act.

00:39:58 SPEAKER_239: Have they given notice that they intended to do that?

00:40:14 SPEAKER_239: Hearing is open to the public, unless there's going to be intimate financial or personal matters or any other matters disclosed that that shouldn't require a public hearing.

00:40:24 SPEAKER_239: Like you folks are aware, I guess, with city council meetings, try not to try.

00:40:48 SPEAKER_239: Unless there is a real compelling reason for the matter not to be open to the public, it should be open to the public.

00:40:54 SPEAKER_239: As I said, the appellant has the right to be represented.

00:40:55 SPEAKER_239: It says represented by a representative, and I. haven't researched that.

00:40:57 SPEAKER_239: I I don't think it has to be a lawyer.

00:40:59 SPEAKER_239: No, no, a person authorized under the Law Society, so it's got to be a lawyer or a paralegal.

00:41:01 SPEAKER_239: So they just show up and they want to have their mother speak for them.

00:41:03 SPEAKER_239: That really is not permissible.

00:41:04 SPEAKER_239: If they they've appealed it, so they should speak to it, or they can hire someone authorized to speak for them.

00:41:06 SPEAKER_239: But and this is a tough one.

00:41:21 SPEAKER_239: If you get someone who's elderly and they're being assisted by a son or a daughter, I guess if someone has an actual authorized attorney to speak for them, but I don't know if is that going to be an issue in this one coming up.

00:41:30 SPEAKER_239: Okay, you do have the right to issue summonses if someone requests it.

00:41:32 SPEAKER_239: I don't think that's going to come here.

00:41:34 SPEAKER_239: You do have the right to initiate contempt proceedings, but don't.

00:41:35 SPEAKER_239: Now, this is important.

00:41:36 SPEAKER_239: You have the right to admit as evidence at a hearing oral testimony or any document or other thing.

00:41:40 SPEAKER_239: That's pretty broad.

00:41:40 SPEAKER_239: It's like small claims court.

00:41:48 SPEAKER_239: It's not like superior court.

00:41:49 SPEAKER_239: Now, what's inadmissible?

00:41:51 SPEAKER_239: This this doesn't really help you.

00:41:52 SPEAKER_239: I'm going to try to explain it to you.

00:42:17 SPEAKER_239: What's inadmissible is anything that would be inadmissible in a court by reason of any privilege under the law of evidence, or that's inadmissible under a statute.

00:42:26 SPEAKER_239: So this is the way I suggest you deal with that.

00:42:28 SPEAKER_239: Watch out for hearsay.

00:42:29 SPEAKER_239: If anybody comes up and says that so and so said something, that's hearsay.

00:42:45 SPEAKER_239: They can say they were told by the City bylaw officer because that's not hearsay, because the bylaw officer presumably can can that would be perfect reply, right?

00:42:55 SPEAKER_239: They, you know, someone says that bylaw officer said I was allowed to do this, and it wasn't put to the bylaw officer on cross examination.

00:43:03 SPEAKER_239: Then that would be reply evidence, because you're going to want to know if that's true, right?

00:43:07 SPEAKER_239: And there's nothing wrong with you telling the City's paralegal we want to hear reply evidence on A, B, and C. But basically, any document can be introduced, and any oral testimony can be introduced for what it's worth.

00:43:16 SPEAKER_239: But watch out for the hearsay, hearsay suggesting that somebody else said something.

00:43:18 SPEAKER_239: There are exceptions to the hearsay rule.

00:43:19 SPEAKER_239: The most notable is if someone's dead.

00:43:20 SPEAKER_239: You can hear from more than one witness at a time if someone wants to put a panel of witnesses on, Brian.

00:43:22 SPEAKER_239: On, Brian's probably seen that happen at the Ontario Land Tribunal.

00:43:24 SPEAKER_239: But we can that that can be done.

00:43:26 SPEAKER_239: When you're making your decision, and it's important because your decision should be written, must be written.

00:43:54 SPEAKER_239: Because if someone wants to take another kick at the can, it goes to the superior court, and the judge will review your decision.

00:44:04 SPEAKER_239: You should recite the facts that you've relied on in arriving at your decision, and then you should write down your decision.

00:44:06 SPEAKER_239: You can take judicial notice of things.

00:44:07 SPEAKER_239: You can take notice of any generally recognized scientific or technical fact, information or opinion that's with it's within your specified specialized knowledge.

00:44:16 SPEAKER_239: Brian needs to be careful with this because I know he's an engineer.

00:44:17 SPEAKER_239: I don't know what the rest of your qualifications are.

00:44:34 SPEAKER_239: I would stay away from anything other than what a lay person would know, because you're not you're not you're not here giving expert evidence.

00:44:47 SPEAKER_239: So even though Brian may be an engineer and he knows this, I suppose he can tell you back there.

00:44:52 SPEAKER_239: But you got to be very careful about putting that in decision, because that's not he can't supplement the City or the appellant with his own engineering evidence, even though he may know.

00:45:02 SPEAKER_239: Keeping it in layman terms is the way I like to do it.

00:45:04 SPEAKER_239: Keep it so everybody understands.

00:45:13 Brian Green: And just while I've got the microphone, the hardest job is hers, because if it's appealed to a judge, you know they want every detail in writing, specifically all in order.

00:45:22 Brian Green: You know the secretary. has the biggest job at all this.

00:45:24 Brian Green: I think I am.

00:45:25 Brian Green: So you can take judicial notice of things that are capable of being judicially noticed.

00:45:26 Brian Green: What?

00:45:27 Brian Green: What's just to give you some example?

00:45:28 Brian Green: If somebody gives some evidence and and you say, well, listen, I live in Owen Sound, I know where the Bayshore Arena is.

00:45:30 Brian Green: That doesn't make sense.

00:45:55 SPEAKER_239: Those are the kind of things that you you could take.

00:45:57 SPEAKER_239: Or you know, there's ice on the sidewalk in March.

00:45:59 SPEAKER_239: Those kind of things.

00:46:00 SPEAKER_239: You have the right to make interim orders if you do if you determine it's appropriate, as opposed to making a final decision.

00:46:07 SPEAKER_239: You can impose whatever conditions you like on your interim order.

00:46:09 SPEAKER_239: And your interim orders do not require reasons.

00:46:10 SPEAKER_239: Only your final decision requires reasons.

00:46:11 SPEAKER_239: What the Act says is you shall give reasons in writing if requested by a party.

00:46:13 SPEAKER_239: But if you're you're sitting as a property appeal court of a property standards order, you've got to do that.

00:46:15 SPEAKER_239: You you must do it in writing.

00:46:18 SPEAKER_239: And then the Cities will assist you in sending out notice of your decision.

00:46:27 SPEAKER_239: You have the right to adjourn a proceeding if someone requests it for a reasonable reason.

00:46:30 SPEAKER_239: Again, it's your call as to whether or not it's given or refused.

00:46:42 SPEAKER_239: You have the right to correct your decisions if somebody says, "Oh, you made a mistake.

00:46:52 SPEAKER_239: I didn't say that."

00:46:53 SPEAKER_239: And then you check your notes, or if you literally make a typographical error, you have the right to correct.

00:46:57 SPEAKER_239: And it says in the Act a typographical error, error of calculation, or similar error made in its decision.

00:47:06 SPEAKER_239: So always remember that it's not.

00:47:07 SPEAKER_239: It's the lawyers say functus, but you you can you can correct. something if you think it needs to be corrected.

00:47:21 SPEAKER_239: Most importantly, and this kind of brings me full circle, you have the power to determine your own procedures and to make orders with respect to those procedures.

00:47:30 SPEAKER_239: You control this court when you are sitting as a court, and you should demand that there be decorum.

00:47:32 SPEAKER_239: People should not be talking.

00:47:33 SPEAKER_239: Okay, you need to ask someone to leave.

00:47:34 SPEAKER_239: You can ask someone to leave, and I think you are aware of this.

00:47:41 SPEAKER_239: Nobody should be recording these meetings.

00:47:42 SPEAKER_239: They just shouldn't be recorded.

00:47:43 SPEAKER_239: It's it's it's precluded by the Act, and some people might not like that.

00:47:44 SPEAKER_239: They're welcome to come and take sketches.

00:47:46 SPEAKER_239: They're welcome to take notes, but they should not be recording these proceedings.

00:47:47 SPEAKER_239: I don't know if anybody has come before you.

00:47:50 SPEAKER_239: Go ahead, sorry.

00:47:51 SPEAKER_239: I am going to say so.

00:47:54 SPEAKER_239: All our committee meetings are actually. live streamed and recorded and posted to our website.

00:47:59 SPEAKER_239: Is that okay?

00:48:00 SPEAKER_239: That's okay, but nobody can come in here and put their phone up on, and they may try.

00:48:25 SPEAKER_239: Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with saying the proceeding is being recorded for the benefit of any court that may be required to rule on an appeal of the decision rendered by this by this board.

00:48:34 SPEAKER_239: So, do you have any questions for me?

00:48:36 SPEAKER_239: That's my little recitation on how you should deal with this.

00:48:38 SPEAKER_239: Name of the game is you are the masters of your own court.

00:48:39 SPEAKER_239: Just some legal clarification.

00:48:40 SPEAKER_239: When I work for the province, they were notorious for doing the your 14 days to do this and 30 days and 45.

00:48:42 SPEAKER_239: Thirty days and forty-five days to do certain things.

00:49:06 Brian Green: If they're given fourteen days and they don't comply with that particular item, does the whole thing become a violation?

00:49:16 Brian Green: I didn't think so, but I'm asking.

00:49:17 Brian Green: The answer is only if you decide it is.

00:49:19 SPEAKER_239: So you have the you have the power to impose that prohibition or to relax that prohibition, and it all depends.

00:49:29 SPEAKER_239: Right.

00:49:37 SPEAKER_239: The question really becomes, and my advice to you would be to ask the other party, do they object, and if so, why?

00:49:45 SPEAKER_239: Yeah.

00:49:45 SPEAKER_239: And the other, when when when it gets to the point where the order is final and binding, particular.

00:49:47 SPEAKER_239: We'll take a demolition.

00:49:48 SPEAKER_239: One shouldn't just go out and get a demolition expert because you know we need estimates.

00:49:50 Brian Green: We need to know they're within the ballpark.

00:49:51 Brian Green: You know, he could be giving it to his brother-in-law for all we know.

00:49:54 Brian Green: How much time should be allowed?

00:50:05 Brian Green: Because there's a building that needs to come down, and we don't want to leave it there for another forty-five days.

00:50:25 Brian Green: You know, what what is the reasonable time to expect the city to receive estimates and to get the contractor moving with the demolition permit?

00:50:38 SPEAKER_239: I think you'd want to have evidence from the city's engineering department because the last thing you want to do is order something that can't be complied with.

00:50:44 SPEAKER_239: So, are you talking about?

00:50:45 SPEAKER_239: an order for an owner to do something, or or something that the city's going to do?

00:50:47 SPEAKER_239: It's something the city's going to do.

00:50:48 SPEAKER_239: The city's going to demolish it.

00:50:50 SPEAKER_239: So, the city has called three contractors to demolish a building to to get estimates.

00:50:59 SPEAKER_239: What I'm thinking is, what is a reasonable time?

00:51:01 Brian Green: Because I don't I don't want to see these city turn around and say, "Yeah, we got to get these estimates within a week or two weeks."

00:51:17 Brian Green: You got to be reasonable, but not over a long period.

00:51:21 Brian Green: But sorry to be dense, we're dealing with an order.

00:51:23 Brian Green: I'm just just to use an example.

00:51:27 SPEAKER_239: You're dealing with an order that requires an owner to do something, a property standards order.

00:51:33 Brian Green: No. The a good example is the building that was kitty corner from the Queen's Hotel.

00:51:41 Brian Green: It was a laundromat.

00:51:44 Brian Green: We. call for three estimates, and I said I want the estimates in within two weeks because I didn't want that building sitting there with hoarding around it and forcing the public to use roadway.

00:51:53 Brian Green: So I put a two week on it.

00:51:55 Brian Green: I just wanted.

00:51:55 Brian Green: Am I being reasonable?

00:51:56 Brian Green: Am I being unreasonable?

00:51:57 Brian Green: I think the I think the answer is: Is there public?

00:52:05 Brian Green: Is there public safety?

00:52:06 Brian Green: If it's public safety, then you make the call.

00:52:07 Brian Green: I mean, you could say forty-eight hours, seventy-two hours.

00:52:09 SPEAKER_239: Say, I mean, that's if if you're if if there's a safety concern.

00:52:11 SPEAKER_239: This is an unoccupied building, and is it a building that is properly barricaded?

00:52:13 SPEAKER_239: I give them as much time as they need.

00:52:23 SPEAKER_239: But again, what I'm what I'm getting confused about is this: is an I'm trying to understand why the city is doing it and not the owner.

00:52:31 Brian Green: Once it becomes final and binding, the city can go in and carry out repairs or demolition.

00:52:37 Brian Green: Airs or demolition and clear the site.

00:52:39 Brian Green: That's the city's authority.

00:52:39 Brian Green: If the order is not complied with, right?

00:52:41 SPEAKER_239: And but my point is, you know this better than I. If if the order is not complied with, city doesn't have to do anything unless it's a public safety issue, right?

00:52:47 SPEAKER_239: They don't have to do it; they may.

00:52:59 Brian Green: Well, I demolished a lot of buildings, and I always got heck off the city because it cost more to demolish the building than the lot was worth.

00:53:07 Brian Green: So, I felt two weeks is a reasonable time to call for estimates, get the guys, and get them right on the job and get this.

00:53:15 Brian Green: Because you've ordered the owner to demolish to demolish, make it safe, and they haven't complied, so the city has the right to go in and do the demolition.

00:53:27 SPEAKER_239: I agree, and but I'm I'm sorry. if the situation where the owner hasn't done the job, and the city's going to carry it out, then it's in the it's it's the call of the of the the fellow in in charge of engineering.

00:53:37 SPEAKER_239: In this case, it would have been you making that decision, and you can do it as quickly as you want or as slowly as you want, as long as people don't get hurt.

00:53:45 SPEAKER_239: Because if someone gets hurt, it's going to be on your head.

00:53:48 SPEAKER_239: There we go.

00:53:49 SPEAKER_239: The so like I obviously now I'm looking at what's been sent and that kind of stuff for our next meeting and all that kind of stuff for it because I was focused on this one and from a lot of the. ones we've done at least here for committee of adjustment, extensive information, researching, going through it.

00:54:23 SPEAKER_240: This right now is like a nine pager with two blank documents and that kind of stuff as to what we have.

00:54:37 SPEAKER_240: Is there like leading up to this?

00:54:40 SPEAKER_240: Are we supposed to be getting a lot more documents and support and that kind of stuff for us to like kind of come in with a lot more of an answer here?

00:54:47 SPEAKER_240: Because like I'm reading this and I'm like I can read the report from the the building inspector, but I'm like I've got I don't know if this is more of a I don't want to say live action, but in live understanding and figuring this out, or is there enough for us to do preemptive research or learning and making sure that we're we're coming in adequate?

00:55:06 Brian Green: We have the ability and authority to to visit the site and analyze what we see ourselves.

00:55:15 Brian Green: We don't go trespassing.

00:55:16 Brian Green: Yeah, yeah, but we we. can analyze, and the only time I've heard an objection to someone going to a site was there was a a dog there and the committee member got bit, so there's always caution, but you know we have that right to visit the site and discuss prior to the meeting, and this type of thing as well.

00:55:33 Brian Green: The visit to the site should all be recorded if it ever gets appealed to a judge.

00:55:42 Brian Green: The judge wants to know everything, so we have the right to visit the site and analyze them, what have you.

00:55:50 Brian Green: Just yes, three, Mister Gerald.

00:56:09 Briana Bloomfield 2: Just add to that in the notice of appeal, the appellant and the city have an opportunity to provide their disclosure package to me by a certain date. and then those disclosure packages will be part of the April seventh committee agenda.

00:56:18 Briana Bloomfield 2: So if they do provide that information, it'll all be in the agenda.

00:56:20 Briana Bloomfield 2: So you will have kind of more of a fulsome idea of what to expect as part of the hearing.

00:56:22 Briana Bloomfield 2: We do have a situation I brought up: snow on the roof gets put into property standards.

00:56:24 Briana Bloomfield 2: It shouldn't.

00:56:47 Brian Green: It might be May before we get round to a meeting, and then we send around saying, "Oh, you know, did he remove the snow?

00:56:57 Brian Green: It shouldn't even be in property standards.

00:56:58 Brian Green: The snow it should be a bylaw unto itself, a dangerous condition, overhanging ice, etc., etc. Should be a bylaw itself.

00:57:00 Brian Green: And this one that's coming up, I believe, has something to do with snow, and it does not.

00:57:01 Briana Bloomfield 2: Three, Mr. Chair, I just I don't. think that it's appropriate right now to discuss that appeal, since we have to wait until the hearing on April seventh.

00:57:05 Briana Bloomfield 2: Very good.

00:57:06 Briana Bloomfield 2: I'm sorry.

00:57:19 SPEAKER_240: So, in that, just for like, just if there's, I, I'm guessing that as we're going through this, if like or as we're all, since there's four of us here and we're not all thinking that we might not all be thinking the same thing, or we might be having difference of opinion and all this kind of stuff, is that something that we should be waiting until the end when we're when we need to make a deliberation that we then walk back to then discuss it, or is there adequate times that if we're in the middle of it and like okay, something is not adding up here, can we stop and talk privately for a minute here?

00:57:52 SPEAKER_239: You absolutely can do that.

00:57:54 SPEAKER_239: What I encourage you not to do is show any dissension among your ranks to the people. who are here.

00:58:00 SPEAKER_239: You can give them as rough a ride as you want.

00:58:02 SPEAKER_239: You can pepper them with questions.

00:58:03 SPEAKER_239: You can stop and you can ask them for questions, clarification.

00:58:06 SPEAKER_239: But as far as discussion between yourself, I'd encourage you to do deliberate.

00:58:10 SPEAKER_239: But you can pass each other notes if you want.

00:58:13 SPEAKER_239: But I wouldn't.

00:58:13 SPEAKER_239: I wouldn't deliberate on the record in front of, in front of the parties.

00:58:19 SPEAKER_239: And and again, I mean, I with this this whole just to use the snow as an example.

00:58:23 SPEAKER_239: I suppose somebody can show up and they can make a legal argument that snow on the roof is not a property standards compliance.

00:58:31 SPEAKER_239: And I guess you have to look at the wording of the statute.

00:58:34 SPEAKER_239: And then there's nothing wrong with you asking the paralegal or asking the appellant.

00:58:39 SPEAKER_239: Do you have any authorities for me?

00:58:41 SPEAKER_239: Right.

00:58:42 SPEAKER_239: I mean, you're not the first property standards tribunal to to have considered these things.

00:58:47 SPEAKER_239: So I know you haven't done many of these, but maybe they'll bring in some. case law.

00:58:53 SPEAKER_239: Maybe they'll bring in a court decision that says, "I mean, clearly snow on a roof could be a dangerous condition, whether or not it's property standards compliance."

00:59:01 SPEAKER_239: Well, I guess perhaps someone may want to argue that.

00:59:06 Brian Green: Brian doesn't think it is, but well, I thought the city had the bylaw because the old post office was notorious for dropping ice on the sidewalk.

00:59:18 Brian Green: So it was that bylaw that I used to have them remove the ice or coating off the sidewalk.

00:59:24 Brian Green: Anyway, thanks for hearing me, and and I do I invite you.

00:59:26 SPEAKER_119: I'm going to give you my direct line.

00:59:40 SPEAKER_239: If you are in a hearing, something comes up, and you want to call, call.

00:59:45 SPEAKER_239: I'll give you the. line is five one nine, four seven zero, three zero one five.

00:59:52 SPEAKER_239: There's absolutely nothing wrong with you calling.

00:59:55 SPEAKER_239: If something arises and you just aren't prepared to deal with it, what do we do with this?

00:59:59 SPEAKER_239: Then there's there's nothing wrong.

01:00:00 SPEAKER_239: You don't have another judge to call.

01:00:02 SPEAKER_239: I guess if you had a peer on another property standards committee, you could call them.

01:00:08 SPEAKER_239: But I'm happy to respond if if something comes up that we haven't canvassed, and almost always, you never know what comes up in these these hearings.

01:00:19 SPEAKER_239: But thanks for hearing me.

01:00:20 SPEAKER_239: Thank you, Errol, for the presentation.

01:00:21 SPEAKER_239: No additional business.

01:00:55 Brian Green: Ms. Landry, would you now provide a presentation to the Property Standards Committee's procedure?

01:01:00 Brian Green: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

01:01:07 Briana Bloomfield 2: Some of this might be a little bit of a repeat of information that Mr. Treslin just presented, but I'm going to provide a brief overview of our Property Standards Committee procedure adopted by the Committee of Adjustment in March 2024, as a helpful refresher ahead of next month's appeal hearing.

01:01:17 Briana Bloomfield 2: The Committee of Adjustment acts as the Property Standards Committee pursuant to the city's Board and Committee Bylaw.

01:01:26 Briana Bloomfield 2: The committee will hold hearings for any appeal of a property standard.

01:01:29 Briana Bloomfield 2: For any appeal of a property standards order issued by a city bylaw enforcement officer under the Building Code Act, the procedure applies to all proceedings before the committee, and rules will be applied in a manner consistent with the Statutory Powers Procedure Act and with other legislation governing the committee.

01:01:49 Briana Bloomfield 2: So, the Statutory Powers Procedure Act is what Mr. Treslin just explained.

01:01:56 Briana Bloomfield 2: Three committee members constitute a quorum for a hearing.

01:01:59 Briana Bloomfield 2: Committee members must remain for the entirety of the hearing.

01:02:02 Briana Bloomfield 2: So, if a member does need to leave the council chambers for any reason, the chair must call a recess until the member returns to their seat.

01:02:09 Briana Bloomfield 2: The committee must not hear an appeal with an even number of members present.

01:02:13 Briana Bloomfield 2: Where an even number of members are present for a hearing, then the property standards committee appeal members procedure must be followed.

01:02:20 Briana Bloomfield 2: This is to ensure that a majority decision will be reached.

01:02:24 Briana Bloomfield 2: The secretary will ask if any member wishes to volunteer to remove themselves from the hearing.

01:02:28 Briana Bloomfield 2: Where one member volunteers, that member will not participate in the hearing.

01:02:32 Briana Bloomfield 2: Where more than one member volunteers, both names will be placed in a hat or like receptacle, and one name drawn; that member will not participate in the hearing.

01:02:40 Briana Bloomfield 2: Where no members volunteer, all members' names will be placed in a hat or like receptacle, and one name drawn, and that member will not participate in the hearing.

01:02:49 Briana Bloomfield 2: The member who will not participate in the hearing can remain in the council chambers, but may not observe or participate in the deliberations of the member's hearing the appeal.

01:03:03 Briana Bloomfield 2: A hearing may proceed in person or by electronic means, and hearings will be open to the public.

01:03:09 Briana Bloomfield 2: The secretary will prepare a hearing agenda, which will include the property standards order and any other relevant file information.

01:03:15 Briana Bloomfield 2: So that would be the disclosure package from each party, and the agenda will be emailed to the committee on the Friday before the hearing as part of the committee adjustment meeting agenda.

01:03:24 Briana Bloomfield 2: The chair will explain the purpose of the committee, which, as I noted on a previous slide, is to hold hearings for any appeal of a property standards order issued by a city bylaw enforcement officer under the Building Code Act.

01:03:34 Briana Bloomfield 2: And the format of the hearing will be either in person, electronic, or closed.

01:03:39 Briana Bloomfield 2: For each appeal, the chair calls the name of the appellant and the municipal address of the property concerned.

01:03:44 Briana Bloomfield 2: For example, the chair will say, "This is a public hearing for an appeal of a property standards order at one two three Main Street by four five six Ontario Limited."

01:03:56 Briana Bloomfield 2: For an in person hearing, the city may provide an opening statement followed by the appellant.

01:04:02 Briana Bloomfield 2: The city will then present its case first, and will call their witnesses, who may be a bylaw enforcement officer and/or other witnesses.

01:04:08 Briana Bloomfield 2: Once called, a witness is placed at the witness table and is sworn or affirmed.

01:04:13 Briana Bloomfield 2: So the witness table will be here, this chair right in front of me.

01:04:17 Briana Bloomfield 2: At the conclusion of the testimony of each city witness, the appellant and then the committee may ask their own questions of the witness and/or witnesses.

01:04:25 Briana Bloomfield 2: The appellant will then present their case and will call their witnesses, who may be the appellant themselves and/or other witnesses.

01:04:32 Briana Bloomfield 2: The city and then the committee may ask their own questions of the witness following the appellant.

01:04:38 Briana Bloomfield 2: The city and the appellant may make their closing statement, and this should include what each party is requesting of the committee with respect to confirming, modifying, or rescinding the order, and/or extending the time for complying with the order.

01:04:52 Briana Bloomfield 2: The format for an electronic hearing is the same as an in-person hearing, in that the city may provide an opening statement followed by the appellant.

01:04:59 Briana Bloomfield 2: The city will present its case first and call upon its witnesses.

01:05:02 Briana Bloomfield 2: Should the witness and/or witnesses be joining the hearing electronically, then they will be asked to turn on their video and unmute their microphone and are sworn or affirmed.

01:05:10 Briana Bloomfield 2: The appellant will then present their case and call upon their witnesses, and then the city and the appellant may then make their closing statements.

01:05:17 Briana Bloomfield 2: An electronic hearing does not change the obligation of witnesses and counsel to conduct themselves in accordance with the rules of professional conduct of their applicable professions.

01:05:25 Briana Bloomfield 2: The secretary will mute the microphone and turn off the video of a witness or counsel at the discretion of the chair if they are acting inappropriately.

01:05:35 Briana Bloomfield 2: Committee hearings are generally open to ensure transparency.

01:05:38 Briana Bloomfield 2: However, there are three main exceptions.

01:05:40 Briana Bloomfield 2: First, if revealing information could threaten public security, the hearing can be closed.

01:05:45 Briana Bloomfield 2: Second, sensitive personal or financial matters may be withheld to protect individuals or the public interest.

01:05:51 Briana Bloomfield 2: And third, an electronic hearing's practical limitations may prevent full public access, so the committee may hold the hearing or portions of it privately.

01:05:59 Briana Bloomfield 2: These exceptions balance transparency with safety, privacy, and practicality.

01:06:06 Briana Bloomfield 2: The committee may admit as evidence at a hearing any oral testimony and disclosure packages provided by the applicable deadline.

01:06:12 Briana Bloomfield 2: The disclosure packages provided by the city and the appellant, if any, will be attached to the hearing agenda.

01:06:18 Briana Bloomfield 2: Nothing can be admitted as evidence at a hearing if it would be inadmissible in court because of a legal privilege under the law of evidence.

01:06:24 Briana Bloomfield 2: So examples of this would be solicitor-client privilege, litigation privilege, or spousal privilege, or if it is inadmissible by the statute under which the hearing arises, or any other statute.

01:06:35 Briana Bloomfield 2: So in other words, if a law specifically says certain evidence cannot be admitted, it remains inadmissible at the hearing.

01:06:40 Briana Bloomfield 2: And Mr. Treslin had provided the example of hearsay.

01:06:43 Briana Bloomfield 2: The hearing cannot bypass court-based evidentiary privileges or statutory restrictions.

01:06:50 Briana Bloomfield 2: The committee may go to a separate room within City Hall to deliberate in the absence of the public, the city, and the appellant, and the secretary will retire with the committee to record its decision.

01:07:02 Briana Bloomfield 2: The committee must deliver its decision publicly to ensure transparency and fairness.

01:07:06 Briana Bloomfield 2: The decision is announced in the presence of all parties involved.

01:07:10 Briana Bloomfield 2: If the committee feels it doesn't have enough information to make a proper decision, it can adjourn the matter to a future hearing date.

01:07:16 Briana Bloomfield 2: And if the committee is ready to decide but needs more time to prepare detailed written reasons, it can give an oral decision at the hearing and issue written reasons afterward.

01:07:27 Briana Bloomfield 2: When hearing an appeal, the committee steps into the role of the original bylaw enforcement officer and has full authority over the order.

01:07:33 Briana Bloomfield 2: This includes confirming, modifying, rescinding, or extending the time for compliance, provided the overall intent and purpose of the property standards bylaw is preserved.

01:07:45 Briana Bloomfield 2: Once the decision is finalized, the secretary is responsible for issuing a certified copy of the decision, including the reasons, within fourteen days.

01:07:53 Briana Bloomfield 2: The decision will be delivered using the service method specified in the notice of appeal.

01:07:59 Briana Bloomfield 2: Under subsection fifteen point three three point one of the Building Code Act, the right to appeal extends to the property owner or occupant, the city, or any person affected by the committee's decision.

01:08:10 Briana Bloomfield 2: So, to appeal, the appellant must notify the city clerk in writing and submit an application to the Superior Court of Justice within fourteen days of receiving the decision, and this ensures the appeal is timely and procedurally valid.

01:08:23 Briana Bloomfield 2: And with that, Mr. Chair, I'd be happy to take any questions.

01:08:30 Brian Green: The majority, I can say that quite openly and honestly, of appeals were usually people asking for more time.

01:08:41 Brian Green: And that's all.

01:08:42 Brian Green: Most of them came down to, so it was understandable if they want more time.

01:08:48 Brian Green: What is the reasonable amount, and that's where the committee agrees on what is reasonable.

01:08:53 Brian Green: And so, if we get any appeals, and they just want more time, nice easy one.

01:09:06 Brian Green: As I said, though, poor Miss Laundry has to keep strict minutes, because if he goes to court, it's a whole different ballpark.

01:09:17 Brian Green: Okay.

01:09:22 SPEAKER_240: The minute taking and all that from your side, obviously, as you retire with us to make the deliberation, are minutes also recorded during the deliberation in that closed-off room.

01:09:33 SPEAKER_240: In that, like the closed-off room, or is it just the final outcome?

01:09:38 Briana Bloomfield 2: Through you, Mr. Chair, I do take minutes during the closed portion as well.

01:09:46 Brian Green: Yes, because when I've been to court for the bigger ones, the judge wants to know that the dots are dotted, the T's are crossed, what went down, who said what, and where did you meet?

01:10:00 Brian Green: Okay.

01:10:03 Brian Green: No additional business was added at the beginning of the meeting, so we will move on to item 11, which is the next regularly scheduled meeting, April 7th, 2026.

01:10:13 Brian Green: It is now 4:10 p.m.

01:10:17 Brian Green: I will declare this meeting adjourned.

01:10:19 Brian Green: Thank you.