Owen Sound Committee - Operations Meeting Transcript — June 26, 2025

00:00:12 Speaker 02: I'll call the meeting of the Operations Committee for June 2025 to order.

00:00:17 Speaker 02: We've got quite a bit of material in the agenda, so we'll be plowing through it.

00:00:22 Speaker 02: And got a bit of a long weekend ahead for some people already to celebrate start of summer.

00:00:29 Speaker 02: We do not have Member Krohn joining us this evening, and Councillor Hamley is online.

00:00:38 Speaker 03: Otherwise, I think we are here in attendance.

00:00:41 Speaker 03: And so, next item of business is call for additional business.

00:00:48 Speaker 03: Are there any items of additional business?

00:00:51 Speaker 03: Member Anderson, go ahead.

00:00:52 Speaker 03: Three, Mister.

00:00:57 Speaker 03: Through you, Mr. Chair, I have an item of information I would share at the end of our meeting.

00:01:02 Speaker 03: It's about.

00:01:04 Speaker 03: Sorry, I cut you off.

00:01:05 Speaker 03: Go just to expand on that.

00:01:07 Speaker 03: Back to you, Donald.

00:01:10 Speaker 03: It's about recognizing Helen Keller.

00:01:14 Speaker 03: Thank you very much.

00:01:16 Speaker 03: Any other items?

00:01:17 Speaker 03: Looking at staff, not seeing any.

00:01:19 Speaker 03: I have one.

00:01:20 Speaker 03: Just a report back on the tender awarded regarding Ninth Avenue and Sixth Street East.

00:01:25 Speaker 03: I think that was mentioned a month ago or so.

00:01:28 Speaker 03: I would report back to committee on the outcome there.

00:01:31 Speaker 03: Item three: declarations of interest.

00:01:33 Speaker 03: Are there any items before committee members this evening to express an interest?

00:01:39 Speaker 03: Not seeing any at this time.

00:01:41 Speaker 02: Item four is confirmation of the minutes.

00:01:44 Speaker 02: These minutes were approved by council without question.

00:01:49 Speaker 02: Comment.

00:01:51 Speaker 02: So I'm just looking for a motion to move receipt of the.

00:01:54 Speaker 02: To move receipt of these minutes, Councillor Kukreja has so moved.

00:01:58 Speaker 02: Any questions from committee?

00:02:02 Speaker 02: Not seeing any.

00:02:02 Speaker 02: All those in favour?

00:02:04 Speaker 02: That's carried unanimously.

00:02:05 Speaker 02: Thank you.

00:02:08 Speaker 02: And first item, we have a deputation this evening from Jeff Graham and Timothy Larose of GSS Engineering, regarding Sixteenth Avenue East.

00:02:17 Speaker 02: I will go to Chris Webb to speak to the item and the introductions before.

00:02:22 Speaker 02: Any introductions before inviting you to the podium?

00:02:25 Speaker 02: Thanks.

00:02:28 Speaker 02: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

00:02:29 Speaker 04: Through you and to members of committee, Mr. Tim Rose and Jeff Graham are here tonight to present the information related to the reconstruction or replacement of the 16th Avenue East Sanitary Sewer.

00:02:48 Speaker 04: The sewer is deficient due to suspected chemical attack.

00:02:54 Speaker 04: It's lost its structural integrity.

00:02:56 Speaker 04: It's a key sewer in the area that's where the city is experiencing some development, and it's also critical infrastructure that should be replaced in trying to avoid failure and therefore,

00:03:12 Speaker 04: which would not be a very good situation.

00:03:16 Speaker 04: So, we through an RFP process retained GSS and retain GSS engineering consultants to provide engineering services for the design approvals and tendering documents and drawings for the construction and replacement of the sewer.

00:03:33 Speaker 04: So, without any further ado, I will introduce Jeff and Tim to make the presentation, and they will go through the slides.

00:03:42 Speaker 04: And if there's any questions from the consulting staff or city staff, we'd be happy to answer them.

00:03:50 Speaker 04: Thank you.

00:04:20 Speaker 04: My name is Timothy Larose.

00:04:21 Speaker 04: I'm from GSS Engineering.

00:04:22 Speaker 05: Thank you for having me on today, through you, the chairman and the board.

00:04:26 Speaker 05: Our first slide is the introduction of just the presentation, just outlining our name and where the project is located.

00:04:36 Speaker 05: Our next slide is the project location, located on the east side of Georgian Mall, for one of a fairly main artery of the city,

00:04:45 Speaker 05: for any kind of traffic and of sewage flows from upstream from the hospital running towards the downstream water treatment plant.

00:04:56 Speaker 05: This road is in fair good condition, but the sewer, as Chris said, is in poor condition due to acidic attack to the main pipe.

00:05:09 Speaker 05: So we'll go to next slide, just outlining description of the project.

00:05:15 Speaker 05: That the pipe had been previously found to be structurally deteriorated through previous work along Seventeenth Street East, which runs into Sixteenth Avenue East.

00:05:28 Speaker 05: The proposed sewer is sized for accommodating the growth and expansion upstream and for any future builds along the street as well.

00:05:40 Speaker 05: The area has been notified in the past as historic use with acidic or contaminated soils, so for this project, we had to retain a geotechnical engineer to provide both an assessment of past uses,

00:05:58 Speaker 05: boreholes for water monitoring, and other issues that would come arise from that.

00:06:04 Speaker 05: Our next slide is a plan that outlines what pipe is going to be removed along Sixteenth Avenue East.

00:06:10 Speaker 05: Along 16th Avenue East, along with a portion of it, along 20th Street East, due to any possible further contaminations along that road,

00:06:21 Speaker 05: we were not able to get a CCTV video of 20th and portions of 16th Avenue due to the structural degradation of the pipe.

00:06:30 Speaker 05: Even though it was asbestos concrete, the videos outlined flooding in cases and just severe structural deterioration.

00:06:38 Speaker 05: Only because the camera couldn't proceed any further down the line.

00:06:42 Speaker 05: The image also depicts a hotel proposed on the east side of the Georgian Mall along 16th Avenue East that is to be proposed in the future after construction.

00:06:54 Speaker 05: Our next slide is the sewer replacement.

00:06:58 Speaker 05: So when they did the CCTV of August of 2023, as I said, there was flooding and structural deterioration of the pipe.

00:07:10 Speaker 05: The interior walls had broken away, which could be the fact that flows could not perfectly flow through the pipe, nor could the camera as well, which blocked majority of the videos.

00:07:24 Speaker 05: We also have a picture outlining showing a piece of the asbestos pipe just sitting into the pipe from deterioration.

00:07:35 Speaker 05: Our next slide is an image depicting contaminated soils based off of the past assessment uses.

00:07:43 Speaker 05: This was provided by the geotechnical engineer.

00:07:45 Speaker 05: After further investigation with the geotechnical engineer,

00:07:49 Speaker 05: we determined that the most northerly part of 16th Avenue East near 20th Street East is the only likely case to have contaminated or impacted soils that would need to be replaced back into the ground.

00:08:05 Speaker 05: The rest of the project had just minor salt contaminants, which is typical for any kind of road in northern Ontario.

00:08:14 Speaker 05: And so, we are lucky that we do not have to fully replace the entire road with any kind of new material,

00:08:21 Speaker 05: or taking out the old material and trying to put it into a landfill or disposing of it in southern Ontario.

00:08:27 Speaker 05: So we only have to remove some pieces of the road of the granular base and put it back in where it was.

00:08:34 Speaker 05: This also helps with us maintaining a Phase One ESA environmental assessment, so that way we don't have to provide a Phase Two and further investigation.

00:08:44 Speaker 05: Our next slide is our construction cost estimate.

00:08:47 Speaker 05: This is talking about the general requirements, which is just the contingency or just any kind of general work to start off the contract.

00:08:58 Speaker 05: The second one is sanitary sewer, which is the main project of it.

00:09:02 Speaker 05: We also have portion of water main on this project that was abandoned.

00:09:06 Speaker 05: That is a two hundred and fifty ductile iron.

00:09:09 Speaker 05: This water main is pretty well within the same trench as the existing as best as cement.

00:09:15 Speaker 05: So when the contractor is excavating the sanitary sewer, he will have to dig up the two hundred and fifty diametre ductile iron at the same time.

00:09:22 Speaker 05: And so that part of that contract is within the water main.

00:09:26 Speaker 05: We also include roadwork, which we are only going to be removing portion of the road from centreline to the west side of the road where we're going to be working.

00:09:36 Speaker 05: It's not going to be a full road reconstruction, as we're just looking for the sanitary.

00:09:41 Speaker 05: So the centreline of the road will be brand new, working west where the sanitary is to be replaced.

00:09:47 Speaker 05: And then we also talk about restoration, which is just the landscaping and any kind of gravel area that we need for a shoulder.

00:09:56 Speaker 05: So the total cost for this project is 1.8 million in change, and Million and change,

00:09:59 Speaker 05: and then we've also included at the bottom what the engineering fees are for ourselves based on our RFP quote is 140 104 thousand dollars.

00:10:11 Speaker 05: Sorry, 1400 thousand dollars.

00:10:12 Speaker 05: Sorry.

00:10:13 Speaker 05: Our next slide is just the project schedule, tentative dates.

00:10:21 Speaker 05: Right now, the tender is out for contractors to provide pricing and questions.

00:10:27 Speaker 05: We are about to.

00:10:29 Speaker 05: We were looking to submit a face a second addendum with the project as for discussion at this point with myself and Chris and Spencer, talking more more so about the contaminated soil,

00:10:41 Speaker 05: so the contractor will have a better idea for pricing.

00:10:45 Speaker 05: So we have a detailed design which was completed on June fourth of this year.

00:10:49 Speaker 05: The insurance of tender, which is June tenth, and then the tender close will do on July seventh.

00:10:57 Speaker 05: The award of the contract is July 1st of this year.

00:11:00 Speaker 05: Construction is to commence on August 5th of this year, and then substantial completion on October 28th.

00:11:09 Speaker 05: Again, thank you, through the chairman, for your time today.

00:11:12 Speaker 05: And if you have any questions, I am happy to ask them.

00:11:16 Speaker 05: Okay, thank you very much, Tim.

00:11:18 Speaker 03: And I'll glance to my right first for the opportunity to ask questions.

00:11:23 Speaker 03: I'm not seeing any.

00:11:24 Speaker 03: And to my left.

00:11:25 Speaker 03: Member Anderson, go ahead.

00:11:31 Speaker 03: Through you, Mr. Chair.

00:11:32 Speaker 03: I want to congratulate the gentleman during the presentation from GSS.

00:11:36 Speaker 06: I was impressed when I went through materials that the actual graphics were labelled, so they were accessible to my screen reader.

00:11:42 Speaker 06: So thank you very much for that.

00:11:48 Speaker 06: Sorry, go ahead, Tim.

00:11:50 Speaker 06: Through yourself, Mr. Chairman.

00:11:51 Speaker 06: We thank you for that.

00:11:53 Speaker 06: Applause.

00:11:54 Speaker 05: We were very, I will say, tight on completing this for the committee meeting.

00:11:59 Speaker 05: So I wish I would have provided a bit more detail for yourself.

00:12:01 Speaker 05: I know we talked earlier, but I would have liked to provide more for yourself, and I will do so in the future.

00:12:07 Speaker 05: Thank you.

00:12:10 Speaker 07: And this is an important deputation to be providing to the committee.

00:12:13 Speaker 07: So I hope you didn't feel threatened by that clock counting down, because I was going to, I was going to present you a little bit more latitude than some perhaps in the attitude than some,

00:12:22 Speaker 07: perhaps, in the ten-minute countdown timer, Councillor Hamley joining virtually.

00:12:29 Speaker 07: Do you have any questions at this time?

00:12:31 Speaker 07: Just wish to go to you first.

00:12:36 Speaker 08: Just on the, I maybe misunderstood you, but you're going to have to remove the portions on the ends, not the portion in the middle that salt impacted.

00:12:48 Speaker 08: That can stay.

00:12:52 Speaker 08: Go ahead, Tim.

00:12:54 Speaker 08: Through you to the chair.

00:12:55 Speaker 08: Correct.

00:12:55 Speaker 05: So, just the northernmost portion of the existing granular base, we're looking to keep within the road base, and same with everywhere else to reduce the cost to the city.

00:13:06 Speaker 05: So, even this portion of the salt road would stay within that because it is just a standard contaminated area of roadways within Ontario due to the salting and sanding during the winter months.

00:13:18 Speaker 05: Right.

00:13:19 Speaker 05: Yeah.

00:13:19 Speaker 05: Okay.

00:13:20 Speaker 05: Yeah.

00:13:20 Speaker 09: Just at this point, we hope to put everything we dig up back in the ground.

00:13:28 Speaker 09: Unfortunately, all these projects typically generate a little bit of surplus fill.

00:13:32 Speaker 09: You know, we're going to remove some of the existing gravel under the asphalt, replace it with new.

00:13:37 Speaker 09: So that's got to go.

00:13:39 Speaker 09: When we dig up a pipe that's down ten feet, we take out dirt.

00:13:41 Speaker 09: We want to put gravel back around the pipe for bedding.

00:13:44 Speaker 09: But for the most part, we have very little contamination that's evident on the road.

00:13:50 Speaker 09: We just have a spot of it at the very north end by 20th Street, but I don't think that'll be cause to try and we'll deal with that area carefully.

00:13:58 Speaker 09: But we still want to put that back where it came from, as opposed to getting expensive disposal of anything.

00:14:07 Speaker 09: Now we're still seeking some final last-minute advice from our geotechnical consultant on just how to handle that.

00:14:13 Speaker 09: The rules these days under the excess soil regulation are now really complicated, and we're all kind of still on the learning curve on that.

00:14:20 Speaker 09: But we're going to hopefully sort that out tomorrow morning.

00:14:25 Speaker 09: Okay, thank you.

00:14:26 Speaker 09: Okay, you're welcome.

00:14:28 Speaker 09: Okay, thank you, Councillor.

00:14:30 Speaker 10: Are there any further questions from committee members?

00:14:34 Speaker 10: Not seeing any.

00:14:35 Speaker 10: I do have one, and whether this is directed to you or Jeff, Tim, or staff, but Council is aware.

00:14:42 Speaker 10: A couple months ago, we approved a zoning bylaw amendment for the new hotel to move forward, and as part of that, there was some conversation regarding active pedestrian trail/sidewalk.

00:14:58 Speaker 10: A little bit of this project at this time fronts the proposed hotel, and I'm just wondering if there can be comment as to what committee members the public could expect.

00:15:12 Speaker 10: As is it incorporated into your projections here?

00:15:16 Speaker 10: Some of that block that does front the proposed hotel.

00:15:24 Speaker 10: I'll go to.

00:15:24 Speaker 10: I see Chris leaning forward.

00:15:26 Speaker 10: Go ahead, Chris.

00:15:27 Speaker 10: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

00:15:28 Speaker 04: Just through you, there under the there'll be a servicing agreement with the developer of the hotel, and so the multi-use path and pedestrian facilities will be constructed by their contractor under that agreement.

00:15:42 Speaker 04: However, this we don't have included in the slide for this project.

00:15:47 Speaker 04: But part of this project, because they're going to be working the road allowance, will include the servicing, the sanitary servicing, and water servicing to the property line.

00:15:56 Speaker 04: That will be part of the servicing agreement with the developer and fully recoverable by the city from the developer to apply to that portion of the project.

00:16:08 Speaker 04: So we didn't show that cost because it's not going to be paid by the city.

00:16:13 Speaker 04: That'll be a developer responsibility.

00:16:16 Speaker 04: So that's the extent of the component of the project relating to the hotel development.

00:16:26 Speaker 07: I'll just go to Tim to turn that microphone on, Jeff.

00:16:32 Speaker 09: I'm looking at Tim now just for a second because I'm now wondering if I remember this correctly.

00:16:36 Speaker 09: There is some existing sidewalk up there now.

00:16:38 Speaker 09: Not so.

00:16:38 Speaker 05: There is no existing sidewalk at that point on Sixteenth Avenue East.

00:16:47 Speaker 05: That's the purpose.

00:16:48 Speaker 05: In the future, is for the hotel to have that cost incurred to them.

00:16:54 Speaker 05: That's I think a later date, maybe in the future.

00:16:59 Speaker 05: There is a curb a little bit kind of near the Bread Depot and the Absolute Automotive that will be removed and replaced.

00:17:07 Speaker 05: Whether that's to be restored in the future because of the walkway, that's kind of up for debate at this point.

00:17:16 Speaker 05: Okay, so there is no existing sidewalk, correct?

00:17:18 Speaker 05: Okay, I thought there was a short chunk that we were going to replace it.

00:17:21 Speaker 05: Sorry.

00:17:24 Speaker 07: Okay, so think what I heard is that this time there is not reconstruction taking place of the pedestrian facilities.

00:17:33 Speaker 07: That will occur only as the hotel project moves forward.

00:17:37 Speaker 07: Okay, thank you.

00:17:40 Speaker 07: I've got no further questions.

00:17:42 Speaker 07: I think a motion to receive the deputation might be fine.

00:17:46 Speaker 07: I'd welcome one if someone so moved.

00:17:49 Speaker 07: Member Doyne has so moved that.

00:17:53 Speaker 07: So you've got an active summer ahead of you, getting that tender closed and back before council for approval at the end of July.

00:18:00 Speaker 07: So we look forward to seeing this advance speedily through the summer season, and I guess I won't talk about the detours because there'll be a few of them.

00:18:10 Speaker 07: It's Sixteenth Avenue.

00:18:12 Speaker 07: There's not another road to connect Sixteenth to Twenty-Third Street till you hit Twenty-Eighth Avenue.

00:18:17 Speaker 07: So I don't know if you want just to comment on proposed detours for the public at this time, just before I call the vote.

00:18:24 Speaker 07: But go ahead.

00:18:27 Speaker 07: I'm going to let Tim answer that.

00:18:29 Speaker 07: Sure, sure.

00:18:29 Speaker 05: Through you, the chairman, at this point, we do include the contractors to provide a detour plan.

00:18:36 Speaker 05: We are expecting the road to be fully, well, partially open.

00:18:39 Speaker 05: One lane.

00:18:41 Speaker 05: Only because we are only removing the asphalt from the centre line of the road west, and that portion of the road won't be accessible for vehicle or for pedestrians if there are any.

00:18:51 Speaker 05: They'll have to be only on the east side.

00:18:54 Speaker 05: The only time that there may be a complete detour plan is when we are providing water main service to the hotel.

00:19:00 Speaker 05: Remain service to the hotel from the west side of Sixteenth or from the east side of Sixteenth Street East,

00:19:07 Speaker 05: only because we are crossing the street at that point to provide that service to the hotel.

00:19:12 Speaker 05: Yeah, this sanitary sewer is unusual.

00:19:14 Speaker 09: That most sanitaries are right dead down the middle of your road street.

00:19:17 Speaker 09: This one's way over on the west side, basically just past the asphalt limit.

00:19:21 Speaker 09: So we're kind of way over on the west side.

00:19:23 Speaker 09: So we're pretty optimistic we can keep the northbound lane, the east lane open all the time or nine percent.

00:19:31 Speaker 09: Oop, cut you off, but that's good news.

00:19:33 Speaker 09: So, okay.

00:19:35 Speaker 10: So, motion just to receive the deputation for information purposes.

00:19:39 Speaker 10: All those in favour?

00:19:41 Speaker 10: And that's carried unanimously.

00:19:43 Speaker 10: Thank you very much, Jeff and Tim, for your time and presentation this evening.

00:19:49 Speaker 10: Item six is public forum, and I'm not seeing anyone rushing to the microphone at this time.

00:19:56 Speaker 10: There's no guests taking in the meeting this evening.

00:20:03 Speaker 10: Item seven is correspondence received for which direction is required, and we have no items before us this evening.

00:20:09 Speaker 10: So, into reports of city staff, the first is item eight a one, which is a verbal report from the supervisor of environmental services regarding the transit dashboard.

00:20:19 Speaker 10: Welcome, Heidi.

00:20:22 Speaker 10: Thank you.

00:20:23 Speaker 10: Through you, Mr. Chair.

00:20:25 Speaker 11: So the report runs from January 1st to May 31st, 2025.

00:20:32 Speaker 11: So during February and March of this year, transit did experience several disruptions.

00:20:37 Speaker 11: There were mechanical issues and, with the severe weather, it led to 72.5 hours of lost service in February, and another 24 hours in March.

00:20:50 Speaker 11: So on top of the service disruptions, there was also the poor weather, which may cause some riders to be hesitant about taking the buses in case they get cancelled.

00:21:01 Speaker 11: So, despite these changes or these challenges, pass sales performed really well.

00:21:08 Speaker 11: They exceeded projections by roughly $24,000, and they came in just under $6,000 higher than the same period of 2024.

00:21:20 Speaker 11: So, fare revenue, on the other hand, it had decreased compared to 2024, so the decline could, of course,

00:21:28 Speaker 11: be in part by the increase in pass sales as well as the service interruptions that we did have.

00:21:36 Speaker 11: It's also important to note that fair revenue reflects deposits received by May 31st, so any deposits made after that would not be included in this report.

00:21:48 Speaker 11: So it's not always until we get the final report at the end of the year we don't have reported the end of the year, we don't have the true picture.

00:21:54 Speaker 11: So, fortunately, well, as fortunate as it could be, the revenue shortfall due to the service disruptions in February and March was offset by a reduction in operating costs.

00:22:11 Speaker 11: In late 2024, council approved staff's recommendation to change the East Bayshore route to by removing the hospital stop and instead have the crosstown route serve that location.

00:22:24 Speaker 11: So the pilot project was originally planned for three months with the option to extend it another three months.

00:22:32 Speaker 11: But due to service disruptions in February and March, we did extend it to July 1st, 2025.

00:22:39 Speaker 11: Customer satisfaction survey was available to the riders both online and on paper, and the majority supported keeping the revised route with the crosstown servicing the hospital.

00:22:52 Speaker 11: A few riders did indicate that the change made their trips more difficult, and this seemed to be more when the route first changed.

00:23:03 Speaker 11: And after we did get some feedback, we decided to tweak the route a little bit by instead of having the East Bayshore route travel along Ten Street, which to avoid Eight Street,

00:23:15 Speaker 11: we brought it back to Eight Street.

00:23:17 Speaker 11: So, by doing this, we also reopened the bus shelter that is across the road from the hospital.

00:23:25 Speaker 11: So East Bayshore riders still had an opportunity to get off a little bit closer to the hospital, but not directly at the hospital.

00:23:34 Speaker 11: So drivers also reported that the change of route has helped them stay somewhat on schedule and return to the terminal on time more often.

00:23:47 Speaker 11: So we will be keeping the crosstown route going to the hospital and the East Bay Shore route travelling along Eight Street.

00:23:58 Speaker 11: Does anybody have any questions?

00:24:02 Speaker 11: Okay, thank you, Heidi.

00:24:03 Speaker 11: Go to Councillor Kucera first.

00:24:06 Speaker 12: Just a quick question, and thank you for providing the stats.

00:24:09 Speaker 12: It's always good to see these stats, and then it makes you realize like where are the possibilities of more routes and less routes?

00:24:17 Speaker 12: So, just a quick question, Heidi.

00:24:19 Speaker 12: So, at the various bus stops, so if someone is at a bus stop and they would like to know what time the next bus comes, is there any information in the bus booths,

00:24:30 Speaker 12: or is it just the app on the phones that they can check when the next bus would be at that stop?

00:24:39 Speaker 12: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

00:24:42 Speaker 12: Thank you.

00:24:43 Speaker 11: So, no, we don't have anything at the route.

00:24:46 Speaker 11: We did have that at one time.

00:24:48 Speaker 11: I know some of the bus stops might still have some of the timings on there, but we don't have anything right now at the stops.

00:25:01 Speaker 11: If you don't have an app, you can still go online, and it does show you the timing.

00:25:06 Speaker 11: Unfortunately, we don't have anything at the stops, though.

00:25:09 Speaker 11: No. Okay.

00:25:12 Speaker 11: Thank you.

00:25:13 Speaker 11: Any further questions, Member Anderson?

00:25:15 Speaker 11: Go ahead.

00:25:19 Speaker 11: Through you, Mr. Chair.

00:25:20 Speaker 11: Heidi, I'm curious.

00:25:21 Speaker 06: I went through the stats, and I found it interesting that there seemed to be a rise in ridership in May, and of course the previous months because of weather and stuff in January, February.

00:25:32 Speaker 06: But I just wondered if there's any reasonings why all of a sudden they started popping up in fairer numbers.

00:25:37 Speaker 06: I thought in my mind, anyway, and also another question or comment around the changing of the Crosstown and the East Bay Shore.

00:25:46 Speaker 06: I take those routes, and I like having the hospital on the Crosstown.

00:25:50 Speaker 06: It makes it easier for me to access.

00:25:52 Speaker 06: But also looking at the percentages that you listed in your report, it seemed like it would help that route to be on more time.

00:25:59 Speaker 06: And you said that it seems to be doing that.

00:26:01 Speaker 06: Is that correct?

00:26:04 Speaker 11: Through you, Mr. Chair, Member Anderson.

00:26:08 Speaker 11: Yes, that's correct.

00:26:09 Speaker 11: It appears that it is more on time now.

00:26:11 Speaker 11: Unfortunately, with the construction that's going on on Sixth Street right now, there may be some further delays on the Crosstown because it had to be rerouted.

00:26:20 Speaker 11: But it does appear that it is more on time.

00:26:24 Speaker 11: As for ridership in May, I'm not really sure.

00:26:28 Speaker 11: I do know that February and March were quite challenging because there were times that we were very limited to how many buses were on the road,

00:26:37 Speaker 11: but we'll continue to monitor it and find out maybe what would be causing the increase.

00:26:45 Speaker 11: Thanks.

00:26:47 Speaker 11: Good question.

00:26:48 Speaker 11: Thank you.

00:26:49 Speaker 11: Any further questions?

00:26:52 Speaker 11: Not seeing any.

00:26:54 Speaker 11: Again, nice information, Heidi.

00:26:56 Speaker 11: Thank you very much for putting it together.

00:26:59 Speaker 07: I think that that ten-day pass sales of six hundred and fifty-six actually jumped off the page.

00:27:05 Speaker 07: I mean, that seems like it's been a tremendous success.

00:27:07 Speaker 07: I'm not sure what we were expecting for sales on that item, but that seems to be well received.

00:27:15 Speaker 07: So, I would entertain a motion to receive this for information purposes.

00:27:20 Speaker 07: Member Anderson has so moved.

00:27:23 Speaker 07: Not seeing any further questions.

00:27:24 Speaker 07: All those in favour?

00:27:27 Speaker 07: And that's carried unanimously.

00:27:28 Speaker 07: Because I'm certain, Councillor Hamley, even though I didn't see his hand in the air, but we're all in favour.

00:27:33 Speaker 02: Item eight B is report from the Supervisor regarding Great Lakes coastal cleanup.

00:27:40 Speaker 02: Back to you, Heidi.

00:27:42 Speaker 02: Thank you.

00:27:43 Speaker 02: Through you, Mr. Chair.

00:27:45 Speaker 11: So the City received notification that we had been awarded a grant through the Great Lakes and Saint Lawrence Cities Initiative.

00:27:53 Speaker 11: It's funded by the Ministry of Environment, Conservation and Parks.

00:27:58 Speaker 11: It's for a waterfront cleanup, and it will be taking place on World Rivers Day, September 28, 2025.

00:28:07 Speaker 11: And OSHaRE will be participating alongside Cobourg, Collingwood, and Chatham-Kent, and I believe Kingston just joined on as well.

00:28:16 Speaker 11: So we'll be receiving approximately $11,000 for this cleanup.

00:28:24 Speaker 11: So it will cover staff time, event supplies, safety equipment, waste disposal, signage printing, and support for community partner, and I believe that's about $4,000.

00:28:37 Speaker 11: So after receiving the grant confirmation, staff did reach out to the Georgian Bay Folk Society, who have agreed to partner with us for this event.

00:28:47 Speaker 11: So their experience with volunteer coordination and their longstanding connection with Kelsall Beach made them a good fit.

00:28:55 Speaker 11: So tentatively, the cleanup area will be the shoreline at Kelso Beach at Naywash Park, and the stretch from the Bayshore Community Centre to the wastewater treatment plant.

00:29:12 Speaker 11: So, over the next few months, staff will be coordinating with Summerfolk to plan the event, which I've already started: recruit and manage volunteers that will be done through Summerfolk, mostly arrange materials and supplies,

00:29:29 Speaker 11: and connect with local stakeholders.

00:29:32 Speaker 11: Website will also be launched in the coming weeks to help promote the event and recruit the volunteers.

00:29:38 Speaker 11: At this point, we're just waiting for the Ministry of Environment, Conservation, and Parks to formally announce this funding that was supposed to happen in June, but it's been delayed.

00:29:50 Speaker 11: So this report is for committee and council's information, and also for staff to bring forward a budget.

00:29:55 Speaker 11: For staff to bring forward a bylaw to authorise the Mayor and Clerk to execute the grant funding agreement, in order for us to start purchasing the materials and working with the volunteer group.

00:30:08 Speaker 11: Thanks.

00:30:10 Speaker 11: Okay, thank you, Heidi.

00:30:11 Speaker 03: If I could go to committee, I'll go to Councillor Merton first.

00:30:15 Speaker 13: Through you, Chair, to Heidi.

00:30:17 Speaker 13: We have had other groups who have actively been participants in waterfront cleanup and clean up and waste clean up.

00:30:28 Speaker 13: So I'm interested, and great we've got a group to work with.

00:30:34 Speaker 13: My comment is: is there a way to also expand that to those groups who have worked closely with the City in active clean up initiatives,

00:30:47 Speaker 13: and or the youth climate action groups who we often want to bring youth towards climate initiatives and clean up initiatives, and I'm just wondering if there's an opportunity to consider expanding to additional groups.

00:31:06 Speaker 13: Go ahead, Heidi.

00:31:08 Speaker 13: Thank you.

00:31:09 Speaker 11: Through you, Mr. Chair.

00:31:11 Speaker 11: So we are provided a set amount, and that is to go to one group.

00:31:16 Speaker 11: So at this point, because the Georgian Bay Folk Society has already been, we've been already working with them, but that isn't stopping anybody from taking part in this clean up.

00:31:27 Speaker 11: All groups will be invited, as I said.

00:31:30 Speaker 11: A website will be coming forward, and at that time, all groups can and going forward for future years.

00:31:39 Speaker 11: If they continue to have this type of funding, we can look at other groups as well.

00:31:45 Speaker 11: Okay, thank you.

00:31:45 Speaker 11: Any questions?

00:31:47 Speaker 11: Not seeing anything further.

00:31:48 Speaker 10: So there is a recommendation in the report just to bring forward a bylaw.

00:31:52 Speaker 10: Oh, I'll go to Councillor Hamley before I look for a move around.

00:31:57 Speaker 10: Sorry, Deputy, I must have misread this.

00:32:01 Speaker 08: So I thought the money was coming from the Great Lakes and Saint Lawrence Cities Initiative, but you're saying it's coming from the province.

00:32:11 Speaker 08: I'll go to Heidi.

00:32:12 Speaker 07: I think it's being fed through the Great Lakes Saint Lawrence Cities Initiative from the province, but I'll look at Heidi to confirm that.

00:32:24 Speaker 07: Yes, that's correct.

00:32:25 Speaker 11: So it will be going from; we will be receiving it from the Great Lakes, but it will be coming from the Ministry of Environment, Conservation and Parks.

00:32:34 Speaker 11: But, like I said, they were supposed to announce this funding in May, so we were holding off on this report until we received that announcement.

00:32:45 Speaker 11: But I believe they'll be announcing it sometime in July.

00:32:51 Speaker 11: Okay.

00:32:51 Speaker 08: I think just because I'm not exactly sure where the money is coming from here, Deputy Mayor, I'm just going to declare a pecuniary interest on it, just in case,

00:33:00 Speaker 08: and I'm not going to vote on it.

00:33:01 Speaker 08: Thank you.

00:33:04 Speaker 07: Thank you very much for pointing that out, Councillor.

00:33:09 Speaker 07: And probably hits on one question: then, are there any costs that we are out in advance of a commitment for the funding?

00:33:24 Speaker 07: If we do not, it hasn't been announced yet.

00:33:27 Speaker 07: So, what if it doesn't get announced?

00:33:30 Speaker 07: Are we committing funds in any way here?

00:33:34 Speaker 11: Through Mr. Chair, no. Actually, as soon as we get the agreement signed and we give it back, then they will start forwarding us money so that we can purchase supplies, and then once it's completed,

00:33:50 Speaker 11: then we will get the remaining funds.

00:33:53 Speaker 11: Okay, thank you very much.

00:33:55 Speaker 11: So, let's see.

00:33:56 Speaker 11: Have I had a mover yet?

00:33:57 Speaker 11: I don't think I've had a mover.

00:33:59 Speaker 07: The recommendation: Councillor Kukreja has moved, and we do have it noted.

00:34:05 Speaker 07: Councillor Hamley's declaration of pecuniary interest on that.

00:34:09 Speaker 07: So, no further questions.

00:34:11 Speaker 07: All those in favour?

00:34:13 Speaker 07: That's carried unanimously.

00:34:15 Speaker 07: Thank you.

00:34:17 Speaker 07: Thank you very much, Heidi.

00:34:18 Speaker 07: And we are to our next item, which is under engineering, and this is from the Manager of Engineering Services, a Roads Condition Update.

00:34:27 Speaker 07: So over to you, Chris Webb.

00:34:31 Speaker 04: Thank you, Mr. Chair, and to you, to the committee, on the March 20th meeting of the committee this year.

00:34:42 Speaker 04: There was a question regarding the current condition of the roads and how we were faring in terms of capital expenditures to improve the condition of roads and what sort of trending are we seeing?

00:34:56 Speaker 04: So staff went back and through some analysis and research looked at the average PCI of city roads in 2021 versus 2024.

00:35:13 Speaker 04: Those two specific years are noted because that's when, in 2021, that's when the city started to do the automated system of assessing and using artificial intelligence to determine road condition assessment.

00:35:28 Speaker 04: And then we also used it again in 2024.

00:35:33 Speaker 04: And I'll get into the details of the variations, but it might have been a little disconcerting in just saying the report from those two years, seeing that the average PCI in 2021 was 66.6,

00:35:49 Speaker 04: whereas in 2024 it dropped to 58.8.

00:35:53 Speaker 04: Just a reminder of what PCI is: it's essentially there's a fairly involved calculation, but in very, very simple terms, a PCI of zero is a completely failed road,

00:36:07 Speaker 04: and a PCI of 100 is a road that is in as-new condition.

00:36:14 Speaker 04: So, the methodology calculates based on the various distresses that are picked up automatically through cameras and also on-board data collection systems, transducers, accelerometres,

00:36:32 Speaker 04: etc. It actually translates that data into information that then is applied to the calculation of the PCI.

00:36:43 Speaker 04: However, one of the things after doing some research was the methodology, the way the data was collected, as well as the method of calculating the road condition.

00:36:59 Speaker 04: In 2021, we had an automated system from a company called Iris Go,

00:37:06 Speaker 04: and it was actually the equipment was mounted on a pickup truck provided by the consultant who was doing the work at the time, and they collected the data,

00:37:17 Speaker 04: and then the analysis was done using MTO road condition assessment calculations.

00:37:25 Speaker 04: That was the tail end of a contract with that consultant, which was GEI; had previously, the city had previously retained for that service, and that was the first time that we used an automated system.

00:37:40 Speaker 04: Moving forward to 2024, through the Local Authority Services procurement process, competitive process, the city retained StreetScan, now called CityLogix.

00:37:57 Speaker 04: They just changed their name, rebranded, but the StreetScan system was used to gather the data and determine the PCI information.

00:38:06 Speaker 04: Their system is different, noted in the report.

00:38:10 Speaker 04: They use a dedicated small compact car with their own on-board system that's basically mounted, and they use the same equipment kind of consistently.

00:38:20 Speaker 04: And then they also use ASTM, which is the American Society for Testing and Materials—that's what it stands for—methodology, which is also a well-recognized system for pavement condition,

00:38:36 Speaker 04: so the variations between the two systems probably led to a difference in the end result of the average road condition.

00:38:45 Speaker 04: So it's not necessarily, you know, we shouldn't necessarily conclude that the road condition went down; it's just that it's a different system.

00:38:55 Speaker 04: So going forward, we're recommending that we actually get some trending in the data and to build a baseline and then measure going forward.

00:39:06 Speaker 04: We're recommending that we use the same company or service provider starting with the next condition assessment, which will be in 2026, and that we use that same company for at least three successive two-year cycles,

00:39:24 Speaker 04: and then that way we can get some better trending in the data to be able to better assess exactly where we are.

00:39:31 Speaker 04: Still to be determined would be the methodology; we can meet or discuss with them, and the recommendation is to go forward with the CityLogix system,

00:39:44 Speaker 04: and meet with them and then decide which methodology for calculating the road condition numbers should be used, as it notes in the report.

00:39:57 Speaker 04: Many municipalities do use MTO, but ASTM D6433 is also well-recognized.

00:40:06 Speaker 04: In the research that staff did, and specifically recalling a study that was done, I think in Norway, where they looked at the various systems and types of analysis,

00:40:24 Speaker 04: there was variation amongst five different systems that were used in Norway, and I think I recall variations of up to 20 per cent.

00:40:36 Speaker 04: So, you know, clearly it's not that either system is wrong or poor; it's just that there are different systems, and in order to get some consistency, we should try to use one system.

00:40:49 Speaker 04: With that, I will conclude my summary of the report.

00:40:55 Speaker 04: Thank you, Chris.

00:40:56 Speaker 03: Are there any questions from committee members?

00:41:01 Speaker 03: I'll look.

00:41:02 Speaker 03: Acknowledge you first, Councillor Hamley.

00:41:04 Speaker 03: Should you have one before I go to the committee?

00:41:08 Speaker 03: Yeah.

00:41:08 Speaker 03: Just thank you for this.

00:41:12 Speaker 03: I remember; I think I probably triggered this one.

00:41:15 Speaker 14: So it's kind of disappointing that there's not interoperability with this, but I'm glad that we're moving forward in a way that's consistent, and we can measure it moving forward.

00:41:31 Speaker 14: So thank you.

00:41:34 Speaker 14: Okay, thanks, Councillor Member Hawkins.

00:41:37 Speaker 14: Go ahead through you, Mr. Chair.

00:41:44 Speaker 15: There's a paragraph in the report regarding the fees associated with it; my question is that, sorry, per reading or assessment, that it could be that wide of a variance.

00:42:03 Speaker 15: So if it's done, and then for the next three years, where the city is looking at six—was 66 to 75, I think it was thousand per period of taking the readings.

00:42:23 Speaker 15: Go ahead, Chris.

00:42:25 Speaker 15: So you, Mr. Chair?

00:42:26 Speaker 04: Yeah, that's the range of the cost over the six-year period.

00:42:29 Speaker 04: So each time it's done, every two years, it's about right now.

00:42:34 Speaker 04: The last assessment was about $220k, and it was around $200k in 2021.

00:42:40 Speaker 04: So the range for the three-year cycle is $660k to $750k, allowing probably for some inflationary adjustments over that time period,

00:42:49 Speaker 04: so the total expenditure over the six-year period or the three cycles every two years is total expenditures of $660k to $750k.

00:43:04 Speaker 04: Okay, thank you.

00:43:05 Speaker 04: Any further, Councillor Merton?

00:43:07 Speaker 04: Go ahead through you, Chair.

00:43:10 Speaker 13: I certainly am willing to move the recommendation that we receive this from; that we receive this for information purposes, and I have a request: when we move to consistency in the information on the reports,

00:43:26 Speaker 13: can we clearly asterisk or identify the source of the evaluation tool that we're using?

00:43:33 Speaker 13: The reason I ask, sorry, the reason I ask is because we are often compared to other municipalities, including—you know—tax dollars spent to maintain roads,

00:43:47 Speaker 13: and if there is a discrepancy in some using a certain measurement apparatus, I would like it at least standardized.

00:43:55 Speaker 13: This is what we're using, and our data is based on this.

00:43:59 Speaker 13: Should someone make a comparator?

00:44:01 Speaker 13: Because if there's a discrepancy, it helps us justify that.

00:44:07 Speaker 13: I'll go to you, Chris.

00:44:09 Speaker 04: Certainly, I would expect as part of the next report that there it would actually set out what the methodology is, the standard being applied.

00:44:21 Speaker 04: That's not a problem.

00:44:27 Speaker 04: Before I call the vote, I have one question myself.

00:44:30 Speaker 04: Is it possible?

00:44:32 Speaker 10: Earlier this evening, we just saw that approximately 81,000 people have ridden on our transit service in the first five months of the year.

00:44:39 Speaker 10: Are you able to draw from this data, just like a mapping tool that would just kind of reveal the pavement condition index for like our transit system routes,

00:44:57 Speaker 10: in terms of maximizing or challenging ourselves to ensure that our comfort levels are satisfactory or improving, and not degrading over time?

00:45:10 Speaker 10: Because obviously there's not another mode of transportation in the city.

00:45:14 Speaker 10: No one has moved more individuals than the transit service does.

00:45:19 Speaker 10: And ensuring comfort is a primary concern there.

00:45:25 Speaker 10: And so I'm just interested: when we're doing this, is that something that we can glean from the data?

00:45:34 Speaker 04: Yes, Mr. Chair, I'll answer first, or at least try to answer the question.

00:45:40 Speaker 04: The data that's provided from the service provider has geospatial coordinates.

00:45:47 Speaker 04: So when they go out and they're driving up and down the roads, it's like anybody who has sat satellite navigation in their car.

00:45:55 Speaker 04: It's actually tracking exactly where it is.

00:45:58 Speaker 04: That data then has those coordinates.

00:46:00 Speaker 04: It's actually loaded into after it's completed.

00:46:03 Speaker 04: They provide all the raw data and the PCI values.

00:46:07 Speaker 04: It's loaded into our GIS, our geographical information system.

00:46:12 Speaker 04: The data from 2024 is in the city's GIS.

00:46:15 Speaker 04: It's only available for staff.

00:46:17 Speaker 04: But each road segment, we can pull that up, see what the average PCI is for that road segment, and then we can correlate that exactly to the transit routes.

00:46:29 Speaker 03: Thank you very much for that response, because I think that is something that would be important that we keep track of.

00:46:34 Speaker 03: If we have the ability to monitor it, I think that is something that's important to be following along with.

00:46:42 Speaker 03: So thanks for that response.

00:46:44 Speaker 03: No further questions.

00:46:46 Speaker 03: All those in favour of the motion, and that's carried unanimously.

00:46:50 Speaker 03: Thank you very much.

00:46:53 Speaker 03: Thank you, Chris.

00:46:54 Speaker 03: And item eight C two is a report from the engineering technologist regarding traffic bylaw amendments.

00:47:02 Speaker 03: I'm not sure if Menon has presented to committee yet.

00:47:10 Speaker 03: If Lara wants to introduce Menon, or shall I?

00:47:21 Speaker 03: This—I'll go to Lara first because I'm not sure if this is your first time.

00:47:24 Speaker 03: I can't remember.

00:47:26 Speaker 03: Yes, yes.

00:47:26 Speaker 03: I'll just go to Lara for a more fulsome introduction here, Mr. Menon.

00:47:31 Speaker 03: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

00:47:31 Speaker 03: This is Mr. Menon Manga.

00:47:33 Speaker 16: He is our new engineering technologist, and his purview is specifically relating to traffic engineering.

00:47:42 Speaker 16: So, in his portfolio, he deals with—he'll be working on the road resurfacing contract, streetlights, traffic signals, and he will be running our traffic counting programmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememe when we have received our traffic counting devices.

00:47:58 Speaker 16: So—Mr. Manga, we're very happy to have him, and hopefully, we don't scare him away having him here tonight.

00:48:10 Speaker 16: Welcome, Mr. Manga.

00:48:11 Speaker 16: Over to you.

00:48:13 Speaker 16: Sorry, I'm going to go to Chris first.

00:48:17 Speaker 16: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

00:48:18 Speaker 04: Being that Mr. Manga is new, and we're more than happy to have him join us, I'm actually going to present the report very briefly.

00:48:30 Speaker 04: Summarised—Mr. Manga, and as well as Riley Burgess, our bylaw enforcement officer, are here to answer any specific technical questions of committee.

00:48:38 Speaker 04: And I think Mr. Manga and I discussed, and he said, "Well, I'll steer through this one for you."

00:48:46 Speaker 04: He wrote the report with—you know—some input from other staff, and but he's more than happy to answer questions when we get to that point.

00:48:57 Speaker 04: So—if you bear with me, I'll walk us through the report.

00:49:02 Speaker 04: Thank you.

00:49:03 Speaker 04: First of all, I'll just preface by saying there were quite a few proposals to amend the traffic bylaw, and most of it is contained in schedules to the bylaw.

00:49:17 Speaker 04: A number of them are housekeeping matters.

00:49:20 Speaker 04: Some of them have arisen because of concerns raised from the public and—from the public in terms of traffic safety.

00:49:27 Speaker 04: Laura already mentioned some of the responsibilities that Mr. Manga will have, and one of the other's key responsibilities is keeping the traffic bylaw up to date.

00:49:39 Speaker 04: And so this is a fairly involved report with a number of recommendations, and it is, I think, a result of not only concerns from the public,

00:49:54 Speaker 04: but also when we go to review the bylaw to look at some certain changes requests,

00:50:00 Speaker 04: we notice—oh—we should probably amend this section because it's either out of date or there's other—there's been changes since the last regulations were implemented.

00:50:11 Speaker 04: So what we have here is first of all—the first location is 16th Street West from Fifth Avenue West to Eighth Avenue West.

00:50:21 Speaker 04: So this is in the Brook area, and it's people who are familiar with the area.

00:50:27 Speaker 04: Sixteenth Street West is a fairly steep grade road between Fifth Avenue and Seventh Avenue West,

00:50:37 Speaker 04: and it's also a well-used road because it's popularly used by residents of Georgian Bluffs coming into and leaving the city.

00:50:45 Speaker 04: There were concerns raised by the residents on the street about vehicles parking on the roadside; there's currently no regulation for on-street parking.

00:50:58 Speaker 04: In other words, its parking is permitted on the roadway, and concerns were raised because of sightlines and the vertical sightlines and the grades and elevations that—if people were driving down the road,

00:51:15 Speaker 04: then entering into the oncoming lane to navigate around a vehicle because of the sight lines—there could be a possibility of approaching vehicles possibly, of course, having collisions.

00:51:29 Speaker 04: But more likely, just causing close calls, and that was raised by the residents.

00:51:34 Speaker 04: So essentially—and we did circulate these changes to the residents in a number of locations—that we've got these recommendations is basically the proposal.

00:51:48 Speaker 04: is to eliminate the on-street parking between Fifth Avenue West and Eighth Avenue West to avoid this problem.

00:51:54 Speaker 04: And a number of residents' comments were specific to this location.

00:52:02 Speaker 04: Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

00:52:03 Speaker 04: We don't like what we see sometimes.

00:52:06 Speaker 04: So the roadway doesn't.

00:52:08 Speaker 04: Also, the width of the roadway doesn't really support on-street parking.

00:52:12 Speaker 04: And so that's that one.

00:52:15 Speaker 04: I don't know if Nanaimo has anything to add to that location, or maybe we'll just take questions on that location first if committee has any.

00:52:25 Speaker 04: And I'll go to Member Anderson first.

00:52:30 Speaker 04: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

00:52:32 Speaker 06: Chris, I'm not familiar with the route or the area you're describing, but is there pedestrian traffic or sidewalks on that particular stretch of 16th that you're going to be working between 5th and 8th?

00:52:43 Speaker 06: Because I'm just thinking of people.

00:52:43 Speaker 06: Because I'm just thinking, if people are walking there, and now there's going to be a change in parking, it might improve it from pedestrian use.

00:52:50 Speaker 06: But I'm just not familiar with that area.

00:52:53 Speaker 06: Through you, Mr. Steer, I would start by saying it's a pleasure to work with the city.

00:52:58 Speaker 17: To answer your question, Member Anderson, there is sidewalk on west side of 16th Street West, which is used by pedestrians, but the access, but it has been noted that pedestrians travel through on the sidewalk.

00:53:21 Speaker 17: They access the sidewalk through either Fifth Avenue, Fifth Street West, or Eighth Street West, or the street in the middle.

00:53:29 Speaker 17: There haven't been any motorists parking their vehicles on Sixteenth Street West itself, so it has not been used by pedestrians yet.

00:53:40 Speaker 17: It has not been fairly used by them.

00:53:47 Speaker 03: Is that a good response, Donald?

00:53:50 Speaker 03: Okay, yeah, I know we're frequently out there as pedestrians ourselves,

00:53:55 Speaker 03: and I'm acutely aware of the hill and the challenges that would be there in the sidewalk that exists from Fifth to Eighth Avenue until it does cease to exist as you then enter George and

00:54:07 Speaker 03: Bluff.

00:54:08 Speaker 03: Go ahead, Chris.

00:54:10 Speaker 03: Oh, she.

00:54:10 Speaker 04: Oh, it's just a minor detail, Mr. Chair and Committee.

00:54:12 Speaker 04: It's the sidewalks on the north side of Sixteenth Street West, and I know you get everybody gets you know east, west, north, south in the streets and the avenues.

00:54:21 Speaker 04: But yeah, it's on the north side of Sixteenth Street West, so there is a sidewalk there, Member Anderson.

00:54:31 Speaker 04: Okay, not seeing any further questions.

00:54:32 Speaker 03: On to the next specific location, I guess.

00:54:39 Speaker 04: This one is, I think, it's really just reinforcing what currently exists in terms of the roadway.

00:54:47 Speaker 04: This is Ninth Avenue East from Twenty Third Street East to Twenty Fifth Street East.

00:54:52 Speaker 04: Both sides existing.

00:54:54 Speaker 04: There's actually no regulations for on-street parking, but the roadway, for the most part, is a four-lane cross-section, and they're all intended to be driving lanes.

00:55:04 Speaker 04: Now it does reduce to one.

00:55:06 Speaker 04: Reduced to one single northbound lane north of Twenty Third Street East, but it has been problematic,

00:55:15 Speaker 04: especially since there's been residential development on the east side of the road where people are parking in the driving lane, the curb lane.

00:55:23 Speaker 04: So in order to, I guess, reinforce the fact that it is a driving lane, and also to be able to enforce a bylaw for illegal parking,

00:55:36 Speaker 04: we need to set this out in the traffic bylaw and add it to Schedule 8.

00:55:41 Speaker 04: So we're proposing that we just prohibit on-street parking on both sides of Ninth Avenue East, from Twenty-Third Street East to Twenty-Fifth Street East,

00:55:49 Speaker 04: and simply recognize the use and intention of the roadway as it's been constructed.

00:55:59 Speaker 04: And I will just say, if there's any additional comments or questions, this is an odd piece of roadway as it relates to the rest of Ninth Avenue.

00:56:10 Speaker 07: I guess from Sixteenth Street to the very end of it on Ninth Avenue.

00:56:14 Speaker 07: Any questions?

00:56:16 Speaker 07: Not seeing any, so we'll advance to the next location.

00:56:26 Speaker 07: Carrying on.

00:56:26 Speaker 07: Thank you.

00:56:27 Speaker 04: The next location is Fifteenth Street A East, from Eighth Avenue East to Ninth Avenue East, and the south side.

00:56:38 Speaker 04: Currently, again, there are no current on-street parking or stopping regulations in this segment of road.

00:56:45 Speaker 04: It's residential.

00:56:47 Speaker 04: It's also in a school zone, and the roadway width, as is the case in many areas, residential areas in the city, doesn't really support, with the width of the roadway, on-street parking on both sides,

00:57:04 Speaker 04: and then two driving lanes.

00:57:05 Speaker 04: But you know, for the most part, it's a residential area.

00:57:09 Speaker 04: We're not trying to be overly regulatory in terms of the on-street parking, and things more or less work out.

00:57:16 Speaker 04: But this street has become problematic.

00:57:19 Speaker 04: It's well traveled, particularly in the morning and afternoon at school start and end of school each day, because of the staff parking that's available.

00:57:28 Speaker 04: Half-parking that's available.

00:57:30 Speaker 04: Some of the staff at the school have to revert to parking on the street.

00:57:35 Speaker 04: The residents on the street are concerned with sightlines leaving their driveway, and the roadway, owing to the fact that it isn't really wide enough to support on-street parking.

00:57:49 Speaker 04: If it's happening regularly, we're suggesting that we should probably eliminate or reduce the parking, or in this case, implement a no-stopping zone on the south side of 15th Street A East,

00:58:03 Speaker 04: between Eighth Avenue and Ninth Avenue East.

00:58:08 Speaker 04: This is actually also reflects the fact that it's a school zone, as we have in other areas, to try to encourage parents from stopping and dropping off the students.

00:58:19 Speaker 04: There are sidewalks on both sides of 15th Street A East in this area, but it only needs to be really enforced or regulated during school days and school hours.

00:58:35 Speaker 04: So the recommendation is to prohibit stopping on the south side of 15th Street A East, from Eighth Avenue East to Ninth Avenue East, from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. on school days,

00:58:46 Speaker 04: and then this simply would be added to the schedule for the bylaw.

00:58:50 Speaker 04: And in terms of enforcement, it's consistent with other school areas where this type of issue has arisen, and it also doesn't make it overly onerous for the residents at other times,

00:59:03 Speaker 04: like weekends and during the summer, where really it's not a problem for the most part.

00:59:09 Speaker 04: It's just during the school days.

00:59:13 Speaker 04: I think that concludes my comments on this one.

00:59:16 Speaker 04: Okay.

00:59:17 Speaker 04: Any questions, Member Anderson?

00:59:18 Speaker 04: Go ahead.

00:59:25 Speaker 04: Through you, Mr. Chair.

00:59:25 Speaker 06: Not that I'm a regular driver on that street, but I'm just wondering, in terms of the signage, for those of us that do travel with other people that drive and park,

00:59:36 Speaker 06: will there be signage identifying that it's okay to park there on the weekend, and then stating the hours that you can't park there?

00:59:43 Speaker 17: Through you, Mr. Chair, the signage that, as planned, to be installed there, it would say no-stopping zones, and then it would have timings labelled on it.

00:59:54 Speaker 17: So to answer your questions, yes.

00:59:57 Speaker 17: Okay, Caswicu Krajna.

01:00:00 Speaker 12: Just a question, and I think since bylaw is also here, how do we enforce this?

01:00:05 Speaker 12: Like we can put all the signs, but there was a concern that was passed on up Fourth Avenue West.

01:00:14 Speaker 12: It says no parking at all the time.

01:00:16 Speaker 12: It's a no-parking zone, but you see vehicles parked there all the time.

01:00:21 Speaker 12: So, how do we enforce?

01:00:22 Speaker 12: Like, what's how are we enforcing this?

01:00:26 Speaker 12: I go to Chris.

01:00:30 Speaker 12: Thank you.

01:00:30 Speaker 04: I'll start, and certainly Riley will be able to also address this.

01:00:33 Speaker 04: But essentially, bylaw enforcement is usually initiated through complaint.

01:00:40 Speaker 04: We don't have the staff and resources to be out there checking every location, and certainly outside of the downtown area of the River Town area of the River District, rather,

01:00:50 Speaker 04: where we have parking enforcement officers that are done through contract, and the outlying areas, most of the rest of the areas of the city,

01:01:00 Speaker 04: on-street parking and let's just say parking and loading stopping regulations are enforced by the municipal bylaw enforcement officers.

01:01:10 Speaker 04: Even city police or on some police services generally does not enforce.

01:01:14 Speaker 04: And I'll just turn it over to Riley for additional comment.

01:01:16 Speaker 04: Thank you, through you, Chair.

01:01:24 Speaker 18: Yeah, so Chris pretty much nailed it on the head.

01:01:28 Speaker 18: We are going to enforce the majority of our parking stuff outside of the downtown through complaint.

01:01:35 Speaker 18: In terms of stuff like a school area or something like that, if we receive a complaint,

01:01:40 Speaker 18: we will schedule a bunch of patrols in that area around school times to try to follow up on those, or if we are driving, excuse me, sorry.

01:01:52 Speaker 18: If we are driving through a location and we do see issues, then we will stop and issue a ticket in that case.

01:02:01 Speaker 18: If we have the time to do so in between where we're going, so parking is done a little bit proactively, but for the most part,

01:02:09 Speaker 18: we're not going to be out on Fifteenth Street A East.

01:02:11 Speaker 18: I believe is the spot.

01:02:13 Speaker 18: So if people do see issues, they can call us, and we can make a note to follow up and do some patrols on that area.

01:02:21 Speaker 18: Councillor.

01:02:23 Speaker 18: Thank you for the clarification.

01:02:24 Speaker 19: And so, if someone has a complaint that they wish to make, so what's the best route that they take?

01:02:31 Speaker 19: And what if it is after hours?

01:02:33 Speaker 19: Say it's at six o'clock.

01:02:37 Speaker 19: Thank you, through you, Chair.

01:02:38 Speaker 18: During business hours, the best way to contact us is through owensound.ca/reportaconcern.

01:02:41 Speaker 18: Owen Sound.ca/report-a-concern.

01:02:45 Speaker 18: We are monitoring that pretty much during business hours, constantly throughout the day.

01:02:52 Speaker 18: Even if we're out of the office, we can see it on our phones.

01:02:55 Speaker 18: So that's the best way to contact us.

01:02:57 Speaker 18: You can also contact us through the enforcement at Owen Sound.ca email, through our phone lines, and after hours, I would say you can certainly contact police.

01:03:10 Speaker 18: They obviously have lots of things to deal with, and they prioritize their calls that they do receive.

01:03:15 Speaker 18: But if you contact a non-emergency line and they have an officer available, they will head out there.

01:03:20 Speaker 18: I believe so.

01:03:22 Speaker 18: Okay, thank you, Councillor Merton.

01:03:25 Speaker 18: Through you, Chair.

01:03:27 Speaker 13: As we continue to go through this, I'm trying to match under the recommendations to the bylaw the suggested bylaw recommendations, and for example, you're talking about a certain time frame for this,

01:03:44 Speaker 13: but that's not within the recommendations.

01:03:49 Speaker 13: So, if we move if we move to accept the recommendations, I'm wondering if we could just be confident that we are accepting the recommendations as stated within the report,

01:04:01 Speaker 13: because the timing is a critical part of the recommendations.

01:04:05 Speaker 13: So, I would just make that request, because there's one other further down, I again am struggling just to match what the report is saying and what the recommendation is saying.

01:04:17 Speaker 07: Yes, and I think what you're saying is the recommendation notes the prohibition of stopping on Fifteenth Street A East from Eighth Avenue East to Ninth Avenue East, outside of the road.

01:04:26 Speaker 07: But that is further in the body of the report where it's indicated 8 a.m. to 5 p.m.,

01:04:32 Speaker 07: and you're just wanting to be informed on how that's captured in the schedule that's attached to the traffic bylaw.

01:04:39 Speaker 07: So go to Chris.

01:04:41 Speaker 04: Certainly, I think, in the interest of keeping the recommendations fairly succinct, or at least not succinct but short, otherwise it would have been a little two pages.

01:04:52 Speaker 04: But it's understood that the details are in the body of the report.

01:04:58 Speaker 04: Council will see the actual changes when the traffic bylaw comes forward and amended by council.

01:05:06 Speaker 04: In the amending bylaw, and all of those details will be set out in that amending bylaw.

01:05:13 Speaker 04: Okay, not seeing any further questions.

01:05:15 Speaker 04: I do have one.

01:05:15 Speaker 04: Manand is ready to answer it.

01:05:17 Speaker 07: He probably has the answer at the tip of his tongue, and I know what he's likely to say.

01:05:21 Speaker 07: But you have 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. as your recommendation.

01:05:25 Speaker 07: Why not 4 p.m., which is closer to the end of the school day?

01:05:29 Speaker 07: Are there employees that have been parking there?

01:05:36 Speaker 07: Through you, Mr. Chair.

01:05:37 Speaker 07: Thank you for your question.

01:05:39 Speaker 17: So the major concern for that specific area, Fifteenth Street A East, is regarding the staff parking their vehicles there during the school hours, and the staff is generally seen to leave around after four.

01:05:56 Speaker 17: So that is why we decided to put the timing, and also it aligns with the timing for other schools, which has the similar bylaw.

01:06:09 Speaker 07: Okay, it just caught my eye; being that bylaw does leave at 4:30, and they do have the right to disconnect at 4:30 as well.

01:06:17 Speaker 07: So when I saw five, I was, you know, no stopping through the day.

01:06:21 Speaker 07: I just certainly had to ask that question.

01:06:24 Speaker 07: I will go back to Chris to expand further on the next items.

01:06:30 Speaker 07: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

01:06:31 Speaker 04: I just also want to add, in terms of enforcement, or at least education and enforcement, because they're two kinds of traffic: always engineering, education, enforcement.

01:06:42 Speaker 04: But I know Oceanside Police Service at the beginning of each school year they have a presence at particularly the elementary schools, and you know they'll be monitoring driver behaviour and things like this.

01:06:56 Speaker 04: So you know there's a little bit of an enforcement and introduction each school year to get the school community aware of any concerns.

01:07:04 Speaker 04: So that's something I just wanted to note.

01:07:06 Speaker 04: Not that they're regularly patrolling, but I do know they specifically go out to the schools at the beginning of the year just to kind of have a look at what's going on,

01:07:17 Speaker 04: and then address any concerns.

01:07:19 Speaker 04: So the next location is related to on-street parking stall on Ninth Street East, and this one is fairly straightforward.

01:07:39 Speaker 04: There's a parking stall on the north side of Ninth Street East that's just west of the driveway into the small parking area for the TD Bank,

01:07:48 Speaker 04: and we've had a number of people concerned about that.

01:07:53 Speaker 04: If there's particularly a larger vehicle parked there, the sight lines are really poor.

01:07:58 Speaker 04: The close proximity to Second Avenue East.

01:08:03 Speaker 04: A lot of times, if there's a vehicle northbound on Second Avenue East making a right turn onto Ninth Street, sometimes somebody will be pulling out of the driveway at TD Bank,

01:08:14 Speaker 04: looking to the left to check what's coming from the east or westbound traffic.

01:08:19 Speaker 04: And they, especially when they're making a left turn out of that parking lot, and they can be caught unaware, especially if the sight lines are really limited due to a car park there.

01:08:31 Speaker 04: So, we're recommending that we simply have a no parking zone for that stall and eliminate the stall.

01:08:38 Speaker 04: And we did consult with the TD Bank, and they had no concerns.

01:08:44 Speaker 04: Any comments or questions?

01:08:45 Speaker 04: And certainly, Chris can expand on that.

01:08:56 Speaker 03: Not seeing any, so have you advanced forward again, Chris?

01:08:58 Speaker 03: Thanks.

01:09:00 Speaker 04: Next location is this came to our attention from users of the off-leash dog park,

01:09:09 Speaker 04: and their concern was that visitors to the park and dog owners were finding it during the weekdays challenging to find parking spots.

01:09:24 Speaker 04: This is kind of an unusual area.

01:09:26 Speaker 04: There's actually quite a wide gravel shoulder on the road that's sort of been expanded because of the dog park and a nearby business.

01:09:37 Speaker 04: And some of their employees have been parking there.

01:09:40 Speaker 04: And the off-leash dog park users were finding there were some days when there was no parking available.

01:09:47 Speaker 04: So what we're proposing is there's still a pretty significant length of roadside there where people can park perpendicular.

01:09:58 Speaker 04: Normally we wouldn't recommend perpendicular parking to the road; it's parallel parking just because of potential safety associated with people backing out of a parking stall.

01:10:09 Speaker 04: But this is a fairly low volume road, and there haven't been any concerns raised because of the type of parking there.

01:10:16 Speaker 04: So we're suggesting that we have an area designated where, similar to in the River District, where we have two-hour limited parking, this will be consistent with that regulation.

01:10:29 Speaker 04: Where there's an area designated for users of the dog park or anyone for that matter, where you can only park there for two hours, and then there'll still be sufficient area north of this.

01:10:40 Speaker 04: Where I know this was raised as a concern of the nearby businesses, and so we came up with a solution, hopefully that keeps everybody happy.

01:10:51 Speaker 04: The other thing I will note was the business was clearing the snow along the side of the road for their employees, and they were also doing it, I guess, for dog park use.

01:11:09 Speaker 04: So this would be, I think, a reasonable solution to set aside an area for the dog park users, and most of them aren't going to be longer than two hours.

01:11:20 Speaker 04: So, we're recommending that we implement, and it'll set out in the bylaw from a certain distance north of 12th Street East to a certain distance north of that,

01:11:29 Speaker 04: and it will be signed as two-hour parking, which is the same as what we have downtown.

01:11:38 Speaker 03: Any questions on that one, Member Anderson?

01:11:41 Speaker 03: Go ahead.

01:11:44 Speaker 03: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

01:11:46 Speaker 06: Manna and I already had a discussion about this because I was very curious because that's an area that I use with my both my guide dogs, and yeah, parking is interesting.

01:11:56 Speaker 06: Let's put it that way.

01:11:57 Speaker 06: When you try and go there, but I'm just curious: how many spaces, in theory, if the city was regulating it, would there be, Chris or Manna?

01:12:07 Speaker 06: And also, if there are a certain number of spaces, in theory, could one of them be designated a handicap?

01:12:18 Speaker 06: Through you, Mr. Chair, there are between twelve to fifteen parking spaces that would be dedicated for the users of off-leash dog park, and there are almost seven spaces that are left outside of that,

01:12:37 Speaker 17: which is not regulated under our parking limit.

01:12:43 Speaker 17: To make a parking stall accessible, it has to be paved and there should be pavement markings.

01:12:53 Speaker 17: But in this case, this off-shoulder perpendicular parking is not paved.

01:13:01 Speaker 17: So to make it accessible and to designate spots for accessible parking lot, we'll have to pave it first.

01:13:13 Speaker 17: We didn't have a budget for that in the previous years.

01:13:16 Speaker 17: Next year, I hope that answered your question.

01:13:23 Speaker 17: Okay, thank you.

01:13:24 Speaker 17: I'll go back to you, Chris.

01:13:28 Speaker 17: I guess if I can add to that, I mean, if committee feels so inclined, they could recommend that it be considered in future budgets to put up an accessible stall there, as men mentioned.

01:13:42 Speaker 04: To make it fully accessible, it has to be hard surfaced.

01:13:46 Speaker 04: It has to have pavement markings, and it has to have signage, not only to designate it as an accessible parking stall, but also to enforce, under the Interior Regulations, the Highway Traffic Act,

01:14:00 Speaker 04: and the fines associated with that.

01:14:02 Speaker 04: So, anyway, let's I'll just note that.

01:14:07 Speaker 04: The next location is loading and unloading schedule 21C for vehicle delivery only.

01:14:16 Speaker 04: This seems to be a remnant schedule that should have been removed some time ago.

01:14:22 Speaker 04: It actually had two components to it.

01:14:25 Speaker 04: One was on First Avenue East, where there was a loading/unloading zone designated, and this is the 900 block, which has been completely revamped because of the Downtown River Precinct Phase Two project,

01:14:39 Speaker 04: where we had brought forward and implemented a number of traffic bylaw amendments associated with parking and loading in that area, and this was just one of the previous regulations that was missed.

01:14:57 Speaker 04: Just to put it simply, we just didn't catch that one.

01:15:01 Speaker 04: The other one is on Tenth Street East, and it relates to a business that was there years ago, to allow them to load and unload materials.

01:15:10 Speaker 04: I think it was a former paint store, if I'm not mistaken, Scenic Colour Centre.

01:15:15 Speaker 04: The current use is no longer requiring the loading zone, and having it on Tenth Street East is probably advisable not to have it there any longer.

01:15:25 Speaker 04: The signage is gone; it's just a vestige in the traffic bylaw that needs to be removed.

01:15:31 Speaker 04: No further comments from me at this point.

01:15:35 Speaker 04: Likely no questions on these ones.

01:15:38 Speaker 04: Not seeing any, so go back forward again, Chris.

01:15:44 Speaker 03: This one is another housekeeping matter.

01:15:47 Speaker 04: Eight Street East, from Fourth Avenue East to Fifth Avenue East on the south side, in the traffic bylaw, it actually sets out that there should be no on-street parking, and yet currently, there's no signage,

01:16:03 Speaker 04: and people are parking there.

01:16:05 Speaker 04: The road width and the roadway does support on-street parking.

01:16:10 Speaker 04: There's no need to regulate it as such, so we're recommending that it simply be removed from the bylaw to reflect the actual conditions.

01:16:21 Speaker 04: Furthermore, on Eight Street East, we notice a typographical error that set out that there's no parking on both sides of Eight Street East, from Ninth Avenue East to Twenty-Eighth Avenue East,

01:16:35 Speaker 04: which is actually County Road 5.

01:16:39 Speaker 04: In fact, the conditions on the roadway and the existing road width and the use of the road being hill or uphill gradient doesn't actually support on-street parking.

01:16:54 Speaker 04: And probably the intent in the bylaw was to have no parking on both sides, from Fifth Avenue East to Twenty-Eighth Avenue East, which is reflected by the actual conditions.

01:17:06 Speaker 04: So that's just correcting what we believe is a typographical error.

01:17:14 Speaker 04: Not seeing any questions.

01:17:16 Speaker 04: So back forward, we've got still one more ahead of us, Seventh Avenue.

01:17:23 Speaker 03: Again, this is a through you, Mr. Chair.

01:17:26 Speaker 04: This is another housekeeping matter.

01:17:30 Speaker 04: This is on-street parking south of Sixth Street East on Seventh Avenue East.

01:17:35 Speaker 04: There is currently signage and in the traffic bylaw, a regulation to limit and prohibit on-street parking on both sides of Seventh Avenue East to a point 206 metres southerly between 3:30 and 5:30 p.m.,

01:17:54 Speaker 04: Monday to Friday, including PM Monday to Friday inclusive.

01:17:56 Speaker 04: I believe this is a result of previous manufacturing facility Edwards.

01:18:07 Speaker 04: People will be familiar with that name.

01:18:10 Speaker 04: That probably had a shift change at that time of day.

01:18:15 Speaker 04: The afternoon shift or the day shift was probably ending as well during the time when the former Bayview Public School was in the area,

01:18:24 Speaker 04: and there would have been a lot of traffic in the late afternoon at that time period, and on-street parking would have been problematic, so it was regulated and prohibited during those times.

01:18:38 Speaker 04: Now that both of those facilities no longer exist, the former baby school has been repurposed, with you know a completely different parking and traffic scenario that doesn't really have any impact on Seventh Avenue East,

01:18:55 Speaker 04: as well as the Edwards facility is has been repurposed, but it doesn't have the same type of traffic generation.

01:19:05 Speaker 04: We're recommending, though, however, because of current pavement width and conditions, and I would say also the residents are sort of used to not parking.

01:19:14 Speaker 04: We're simply recommending that on the west side of Seventh Avenue, from Sixth Street southerly approximately 206 metres, that we simply have a no-parking zone, and on that side, as noted in the report, there's institutional,

01:19:30 Speaker 04: multi-residential uses where they have their own private parking facilities.

01:19:35 Speaker 04: They don't need parking on the street.

01:19:38 Speaker 04: The current centre line of the road and the road width already are in place to not promote or facilitate on-street parking on the west side.

01:19:52 Speaker 04: On the east side, because the northbound traffic, which is controlled by a traffic signal at Sixth Street East, widens out to two lanes.

01:20:05 Speaker 04: There's a right-turn lane and a left-turn lane, in order to allow free movement and not back up the traffic and provide for adequate storage.

01:20:15 Speaker 04: We're recommending that we can still allow parking all the time, just a little further south from Sixth Street, where there is residential development.

01:20:25 Speaker 04: So the homes along there have parking now.

01:20:29 Speaker 04: We're saying we can just simply lift the time-limited no-parking and allow parking at any time.

01:20:37 Speaker 04: But we're just extending the no-parking zone just a little further south of what was currently the time-limited parking zone, just to ensure that people aren't parking close to the intersection.

01:20:51 Speaker 04: Okay, thank you.

01:20:53 Speaker 04: It definitely does because it just cut you off.

01:20:56 Speaker 04: Any questions on that last traffic location?

01:21:01 Speaker 04: Not seeing any.

01:21:02 Speaker 04: So back over to you again, Chris.

01:21:05 Speaker 04: Thank you.

01:21:08 Speaker 04: Now this is an issue that was brought forward by the law enforcement division and certainly Riley's prepared to speak to it.

01:21:17 Speaker 04: Essentially, just a very high-level summary.

01:21:21 Speaker 04: The current mechanisms to restrict people, particularly residential properties, from parking in improper areas—constructed areas that are designed for driveways and private parking.

01:21:36 Speaker 04: There are mechanisms in the city's zoning bylaw,

01:21:41 Speaker 04: the city's property standards bylaw and also the city's temporary encroachment permit bylaw to regulate or at least restrict people parking freely on their lawns or in areas that aren't really appropriate.

01:21:58 Speaker 04: The issue is currently the mechanisms are a little unwieldy; they're cumbersome and time-consuming in terms of enforcement,

01:22:13 Speaker 04: and I think Riley will speak specifically to some recommendations that he had from a prosecutor relating to these issues.

01:22:22 Speaker 04: But a more efficient way would be to put a regulation in the city's traffic bylaw and then have an enforcement tool to be able to issue a ticket if somebody is parking, I think,

01:22:40 Speaker 04: consistently where they shouldn't be on private property,

01:22:43 Speaker 04: so that is essentially the Council's notes for the reason behind recommending that we put a mechanism into the traffic bylaw to be able to enforce and regulate parking on private property.

01:23:05 Speaker 04: Okay.

01:23:05 Speaker 04: Thanks, Chris.

01:23:08 Speaker 04: Did you have anything you want to add first, Riley?

01:23:10 Speaker 04: I'll go to Councillor Merton first.

01:23:12 Speaker 04: I see her hands near, and then Member Indo, then Member Hawkins.

01:23:18 Speaker 07: Through you, Chair.

01:23:21 Speaker 07: This particular change causes me concern.

01:23:25 Speaker 13: I understand why it's being asked for, but I do believe that there is a boundary between private property and city-owned property and facilities, roadways, sidewalks.

01:23:41 Speaker 13: We are also looking at zoning changes, where that's up for public review, and it may be more appropriate to allow that process to continue forward,

01:23:57 Speaker 13: and the public to be able to provide input around a potential change through that process of public consultation.

01:24:08 Speaker 13: This one, I am not as supportive of, but I'm open to listening to a defence of this.

01:24:17 Speaker 13: But I really do have a concern and a need to respect the rights of private property owners.

01:24:29 Speaker 13: Thanks, Councillor.

01:24:30 Speaker 13: I'll go to Riley for some response.

01:24:36 Speaker 13: Thank you, through you, Chair.

01:24:38 Speaker 13: So, I guess I just want to kind of clarify that this isn't changing what is and isn't allowed.

01:24:46 Speaker 18: It's already not allowed.

01:24:48 Speaker 18: It's just the way that we enforce it is.

01:24:50 Speaker 18: We're requesting it to be slightly different.

01:24:54 Speaker 18: The reason that this is kind of being brought to our attention now is we had a case with a specific property that went on for about eleven months.

01:25:03 Speaker 18: We were trying to get compliance with it.

01:25:05 Speaker 18: Eventually, we weren't able to get compliance, and we did have to issue a charge through the Temporary Encroachment Bylaw, which, as it notes in the report, is a five hundred dollar ticket.

01:25:18 Speaker 18: With court costs, it ends up being six hundred and fifteen dollars.

01:25:21 Speaker 18: So, this went through the court system.

01:25:25 Speaker 18: The person fought the charge that was issued.

01:25:30 Speaker 18: The Justice of the Peace did eventually convict the person, but they thought that the fine was excessive, so they didn't issue any fine for the case.

01:25:40 Speaker 18: So they were guilty, but there was no fine.

01:25:43 Speaker 18: So it was recommended by our prosecutor that we change the way that we enforce that section of the zoning bylaw and the Temporary Encroachment Bylaw.

01:25:56 Speaker 18: Okay, thanks, Riley.

01:25:57 Speaker 18: I'll go to Member Indo next, then.

01:26:00 Speaker 18: Member Hawkins and Councillor Hamley.

01:26:02 Speaker 18: I see his hand in the air.

01:26:05 Speaker 18: Through you, Chair.

01:26:06 Speaker 18: I agree with Carol's comments.

01:26:10 Speaker 20: I have a couple questions, and of course my own comment.

01:26:14 Speaker 20: But the first question is: Is this an ongoing problem in the City of Owen Sound?

01:26:19 Speaker 20: Is that why this is being recommended?

01:26:21 Speaker 20: Like I don't want to live next door to somebody that has a bunch of cars on their lawn any more than anyone else does,

01:26:27 Speaker 20: but I am very uncomfortable with telling homeowners that pay very high taxes that they can't park the car on the lawn for short periods.

01:26:40 Speaker 20: Like I wouldn't want to see it ongoing.

01:26:42 Speaker 20: So my first question was: Is it an issue?

01:26:45 Speaker 20: Or you cited one, but hopefully there's more than one.

01:26:58 Speaker 20: Thank you.

01:26:59 Speaker 20: Through you, Chair.

01:27:00 Speaker 20: So, as far as the complaints that we receive, I did a quick look back, and it looks like in the last year we've had about ten complaints on it.

01:27:08 Speaker 18: So it's not a major issue that is being brought to our attention.

01:27:12 Speaker 18: It's a small percentage of the complaints we receive, but I think if you did drive around, it is pretty common in certain neighbourhoods.

01:27:23 Speaker 18: Go ahead, Arlene.

01:27:25 Speaker 18: Through you, Chair.

01:27:26 Speaker 18: So, my second question is, like, I don't think I could vote in favour of this.

01:27:36 Speaker 20: I'm in favour of the rest so far, but is it possible to amend it or put something in there saying they could park on their lawn for short term?

01:27:46 Speaker 20: Like, there might be a reason why you'd park on your lawn.

01:27:50 Speaker 20: I can't come up with a lot.

01:27:51 Speaker 20: I probably could if I thought about it, but I don't see why a homeowner would not be allowed to park on their lawn if they wanted.

01:27:59 Speaker 20: Now, if it's a city frontage or something, that's maybe different.

01:28:04 Speaker 20: But that—that's just wondering.

01:28:08 Speaker 20: Okay, I'll go to Riley for some comment.

01:28:11 Speaker 07: But yeah, you are starting to want to be more informed on what our zoning bylaws allow in terms of setbacks and so forth, because there are stringent rules in place,

01:28:22 Speaker 07: and there's a lot of planning language in documents as well.

01:28:25 Speaker 07: But go ahead, Bradley.

01:28:28 Speaker 07: Thank you.

01:28:28 Speaker 07: So I do want to point out once again that we're not changing any behaviour that's currently allowed.

01:28:36 Speaker 18: It's not allowed right now.

01:28:37 Speaker 18: So if we do get a complaint about it, we do have to go talk to the property owner and resolve that behaviour now.

01:28:46 Speaker 18: The only thing we're changing is the enforcement mechanism.

01:28:49 Speaker 18: So if the committee would like to recommend that that behaviour be allowed, we would need to change the zoning bylaw, the Temporary Encroachment Bylaw, and a few other bylaws to allow that to happen.

01:29:03 Speaker 18: It's currently not allowed.

01:29:05 Speaker 18: We're just looking at changing the way that we enforce those situations.

01:29:12 Speaker 18: Member Hawkins, are you good first?

01:29:14 Speaker 18: Sorry, before I go to Michelle, I'll go back to you, Arlene.

01:29:17 Speaker 18: Go ahead.

01:29:18 Speaker 18: Just a quick comment.

01:29:20 Speaker 20: I would like to know how many residents in Owen Sound know that they can't park on their lawn for short term.

01:29:27 Speaker 20: Like if you pulled your vehicle up on your lawn to wash it, and then by accident or whatever reason you left it there overnight.

01:29:34 Speaker 20: Like if somebody knocked on my door and said I'm being fined, I would be not happy.

01:29:38 Speaker 20: So I don't know how many residents would actually know that.

01:29:42 Speaker 20: I understand why you can't change everything, but I just wonder how many are actually aware of that.

01:29:48 Speaker 20: Thank you.

01:29:50 Speaker 20: Okay, good questions.

01:29:51 Speaker 20: And before I go to Michelle, I'm going to go to Lara for some response there too.

01:29:56 Speaker 03: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

01:29:57 Speaker 03: I just wanted to respond to Member Indo's comment about, and I see where you're going with that.

01:30:04 Speaker 16: That you're looking for a reasonableness check, that it's not going to be wildly policed.

01:30:10 Speaker 16: You know, the situation that you mentioned, that somebody left their vehicle on their front yard overnight, that is extremely unlikely.

01:30:22 Speaker 16: I think, and I'm—you know, Riley can correct me if I'm wrong.

01:30:25 Speaker 16: It's extremely unlikely that they would be ticketed for something like that because we have two bylaw officers year-round, three in the summer, I believe.

01:30:35 Speaker 16: They operate on a complaint basis only, so you know, odds are the first time they show up at your house, it's going to be educating you on what you can and can't do,

01:30:47 Speaker 16: and then if it was an ongoing problem, that would be when they would reach for a ticket as the solution.

01:30:57 Speaker 16: Okay, thanks.

01:30:57 Speaker 16: I'll go to Michelle next.

01:31:04 Speaker 16: Thank you, Chair.

01:31:05 Speaker 16: I agree with Council Merton and my member, other member here as well.

01:31:14 Speaker 15: I believe that you are going to find that we have like fifty years of habit of residents parking on their lawns, their campers, their RVs,

01:31:29 Speaker 15: and the wording on this is "vehicle," so that can even mean for people who have scooters, right?

01:31:38 Speaker 15: That—and I see it in my neighbourhood where you know they park their scooters on the front lawns, so I just—I believe that we're kind of going down a bit of a rabbit hole,

01:31:50 Speaker 15: and we're going to upset a lot of people.

01:31:52 Speaker 15: And I understand that these rules are already in place.

01:31:58 Speaker 15: It just seems that we're punishing the many for the fault of a few.

01:32:07 Speaker 15: Okay, thanks.

01:32:08 Speaker 15: I'm going to go to Councillor Hamley, and I see.

01:32:09 Speaker 15: Councillor Hamley, and then I see Councillor Merton's hand again in the air.

01:32:11 Speaker 03: Go ahead, Brock.

01:32:13 Speaker 03: Yeah, I just wanted to maybe ask Chris, like, and maybe I'm not understanding this properly,

01:32:23 Speaker 03: but like the reason that a bylaw like this is already on the books is because long-term parking on a front lawn can put significant pressure on the infrastructure under the ground.

01:32:38 Speaker 08: Is that not correct, and cause problems for both the homeowner and the city?

01:32:48 Speaker 08: Go ahead, Chris.

01:32:49 Speaker 08: Mr. Chair, the zoning bylaws, as I mentioned, regulate setbacks, side yard setbacks, front yard setbacks.

01:32:59 Speaker 04: It tries to—and also it limits the amount of impervious or hard surface on a residential property based on Residential property, basically fifty percent.

01:33:08 Speaker 04: There's a formula: fifty percent of the frontage, lot coverage area, etc. And lot coverage area is also part of the zoning bylaw and for residential properties.

01:33:19 Speaker 04: So, if people want to exceed that, they can apply for a minor variance through the Committee of Adjustment and get relief on that, or for a new development.

01:33:30 Speaker 04: But it's not just the concern that was mentioned, but also, we don't want to have everybody's front yard paved.

01:33:42 Speaker 04: Ideally, the reality is now—we get into—and I don't want to go on and on about this, but we're now getting these accessory dwelling units, etc.,

01:33:51 Speaker 04: where you know there's going to be increasing pressure to accommodate off-street parking, private parking, but that is going to have to be in balance with climate impacts,

01:34:03 Speaker 04: which obviously increased runoff during storm events is going to put additional infrastructure pressures, and the runoff needs to be drained somewhere,

01:34:15 Speaker 04: so that potentially increases the amount of stormwater that has to be managed by the city system.

01:34:23 Speaker 04: So there's also—you know—these heat islands that we talk about.

01:34:26 Speaker 04: So there's a balance here that I'm not going to go on and on about,

01:34:30 Speaker 04: but there's kind of also that aesthetic that people are worried about—they don't want to see everybody's front yard turning into a parking lot—but that will have to be balanced with the needs of people and

01:34:43 Speaker 04: densification of people and people having cars going forward.

01:34:48 Speaker 04: You know, vehicles and the way people get around.

01:34:51 Speaker 04: There's more.

01:34:52 Speaker 04: There's more options and different types of ways of travelling about, and that will also impact where people park and how much parking area they need.

01:35:05 Speaker 04: So, I was just going to mention one other thing, and Riley just mentioned they were trying to enforce under the temporary encroachment permit, and then the fine under that is five hundred dollars,

01:35:18 Speaker 04: which is excessive for this.

01:35:20 Speaker 04: But the temporary encroachment permit is endeavoring to address safety, particularly.

01:35:29 Speaker 04: So that type of fine is really intended to address somebody who's operating in the city's roadways unsafely.

01:35:38 Speaker 04: They maybe didn't have proper traffic control.

01:35:41 Speaker 04: They're jeopardizing traffic.

01:35:43 Speaker 04: They're parking on a sidewalk and potentially risking the safety of pedestrians.

01:35:49 Speaker 04: So that is a higher level of fine because there's a higher level of safety and liability associated with that.

01:35:57 Speaker 04: But it's really not an appropriate tool in this instance that can be used.

01:36:03 Speaker 04: But it's not really appropriate to use the mechanism of the temporary encroachment permit for this.

01:36:08 Speaker 04: And I think the intent is to try to streamline administration.

01:36:12 Speaker 04: But you know, there are other extenuating circumstances.

01:36:16 Speaker 04: Thank you.

01:36:19 Speaker 04: Anything further, Councillor Hamley?

01:36:21 Speaker 04: No. Councillor Merton, and then Councillor Kukreja is next.

01:36:25 Speaker 04: Through you, Chair.

01:36:26 Speaker 04: It is really important that we become aware, and I think the comment there may be many who are not aware that this is in place.

01:36:40 Speaker 13: The reasons for it to be in place, like anything, things change.

01:36:45 Speaker 13: We're in transition times around densification of housing, and you know what people are needing for transportation devices.

01:36:55 Speaker 13: We also have a certain population that has specific mobility needs, which adds increased demand for parking availability.

01:37:07 Speaker 13: Now that we know and are more aware of the rationale why, there is an opportunity for the public to comment.

01:37:14 Speaker 13: We are looking at a zoning bylaw change, and awareness is one.

01:37:21 Speaker 13: The reasonable test is another.

01:37:24 Speaker 13: And I think also to be able to use bylaw services in an effective and efficient way.

01:37:31 Speaker 13: There's many demands, so I would encourage everyone who becomes aware that this is in place,

01:37:39 Speaker 13: there is an opportunity to have a voice about where they want the city to go as far as the zoning bylaw and of course then the encroachment.

01:37:49 Speaker 13: So I thank you for making us aware of this because this is a key point in a learning opportunity for all of our residents.

01:37:57 Speaker 13: Thank you, Councillor Kukreja.

01:38:03 Speaker 13: Through you, Chair.

01:38:04 Speaker 13: Just a quick question and maybe clarification for my brain.

01:38:08 Speaker 12: When I read this, it says new parking regulations to prohibit parking in residential zones, except within legal driveways or parking areas.

01:38:18 Speaker 12: So, does that include that if there is a residential unit and say five people living, all five have cars, but the driveway takes only two cars,

01:38:29 Speaker 12: and the rest of the three are on the street, so would it be they would be non-compliant based on this,

01:38:38 Speaker 12: or it's a home and the driveway takes two cars and there's a trailer which is parked on the street, so does that—does both these situations get enforced or fined?

01:38:55 Speaker 12: Thank you.

01:38:56 Speaker 12: Through you, Chair.

01:38:57 Speaker 12: So, no, any on-street parking, if it's otherwise allowed, is totally fine.

01:39:02 Speaker 18: What this is saying in the proposed wording is that it needs to be on a driveway parking area.

01:39:11 Speaker 18: So, what happens a lot of times when we get complaints about this is people will say, well, I have five cars of people who drive at this house.

01:39:23 Speaker 18: We don't have enough parking in the driveway.

01:39:26 Speaker 18: So what we do is we connect them with engineering services who can work them through the permit process for either extending the area that they have to park on a hard surface,

01:39:38 Speaker 18: either in the front yard, side yard, backyard.

01:39:41 Speaker 18: There are options for them where they can construct more area.

01:39:48 Speaker 18: So that would be the situation where if we got into changing zoning and having more people living in one house, there are options for them to add parking to their property.

01:39:59 Speaker 18: They just can't park in that landscaped area that isn't meant for parking.

01:40:07 Speaker 18: That was my question.

01:40:09 Speaker 18: Like, like, say I'm a homeowner.

01:40:11 Speaker 18: I refuse to build a laneway, right?

01:40:14 Speaker 19: And I'll park right on the other end of the street.

01:40:17 Speaker 19: So would that be: would I be non-compliant?

01:40:21 Speaker 19: Because there is no sign that says it's public parking; it's a road, and there's no signage that says no parking as well.

01:40:32 Speaker 19: Are you referring to the boulevard area?

01:40:40 Speaker 21: Like on the street itself, like the pavement.

01:40:42 Speaker 21: Street itself, like the paved roadway surface, and there's no other parking regulations there.

01:40:48 Speaker 21: Then it's completely fine to park.

01:40:50 Speaker 21: As far as the boulevard portion, so not the travel portion of the roadway, but it could be the landscape strip, the grass, the sidewalk, all of that stuff.

01:41:00 Speaker 21: You can't park in the boulevard currently.

01:41:02 Speaker 21: That's in the traffic bylaw, and you can't park on a sidewalk, stuff like that.

01:41:08 Speaker 21: If we're talking about the driveway apron, so the portion that city owns that is the driveway, you also wouldn't be able to park there because that's part of the boulevard.

01:41:18 Speaker 21: But if they're on street parking that is otherwise permitted, then this does not have any effect on that.

01:41:28 Speaker 21: Member Anderson, go ahead.

01:41:32 Speaker 21: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

01:41:33 Speaker 21: Riley, thank you for explaining a lot of this.

01:41:35 Speaker 21: I just need a little clarification.

01:41:38 Speaker 21: Just to give an example, under the Unimpaired Blind Persons Rights Act, police cannot issue tickets; they issue summons, which then have to go to the court system.

01:41:47 Speaker 06: So, the way our system is working now, and I think Chris can answer this as well, we have to issue a summons to a person parking on grass for too long a time period,

01:41:56 Speaker 06: they becoming a problem.

01:41:58 Speaker 06: Then it has to go to the court, and that's where we end up with the five hundred dollars fine.

01:42:02 Speaker 06: What you're asking, Riley, if you can clarify this, is that you're asking that system to change,

01:42:07 Speaker 06: so we can just issue a ticket to the person parking on the grass for too long a time period,

01:42:12 Speaker 06: and then easily solve that problem by issuing a ticket rather than going to the court system.

01:42:17 Speaker 06: Is that correct?

01:42:21 Speaker 06: Thank you for the question, through you, Chair.

01:42:22 Speaker 18: For the most part, yes, that would be a good summation.

01:42:28 Speaker 18: The reason that we're looking at doing this is twofold: one, for efficiency.

01:42:34 Speaker 18: It's just not efficient the way we're currently doing things.

01:42:38 Speaker 18: The other is the fact that our prosecutor did recommend it based on that previous court case I spoke about.

01:42:48 Speaker 18: Okay, I'm going to go back to Arlene, and then I'm going to speak to this one.

01:42:52 Speaker 03: I presumed we'd see a lot of discussion.

01:42:55 Speaker 03: I have my own thoughts.

01:42:56 Speaker 03: I'd like to contribute through you, Chair.

01:43:03 Speaker 03: You will be issuing a warning or just giving a ticket.

01:43:09 Speaker 20: I don't park on my lawn, but I just know people, some people that do for short periods of time.

01:43:14 Speaker 20: Thank you.

01:43:20 Speaker 20: Go ahead, Riley.

01:43:22 Speaker 20: Thank you through you, Chair.

01:43:23 Speaker 20: So that would be a procedural decision in the division and all that kind of stuff.

01:43:31 Speaker 18: If this were to be implemented, I would imagine that we would want to do an educational campaign on social media, all that kind of stuff,

01:43:38 Speaker 18: and we would want to have a period of time where we would be issuing warning tickets rather than going right to a ticket.

01:43:48 Speaker 18: Generally speaking, we are not; we don't operate in an immediate penalty way for non-safety related issues.

01:43:56 Speaker 18: So we would continue to go talk to the property owner and let them know it's an issue and try to work with them if they need to get a different parking setup through engineering or

01:44:08 Speaker 18: anything like that.

01:44:09 Speaker 18: We want to work with them.

01:44:11 Speaker 18: This would just be a different way of enforcing it where they don't want to comply.

01:44:18 Speaker 18: Well, here we go.

01:44:20 Speaker 18: This might be three or four minutes.

01:44:21 Speaker 18: I don't know.

01:44:22 Speaker 18: We might move to a proactive bylaw system, and under such, I think back to how to a house that my wife first bought in the valley.

01:44:34 Speaker 07: I think there's almost separation in terms of new built subdivisions.

01:44:38 Speaker 07: You're not going to encounter this problem to the same extent as you will down in the valley with hundred-year-old homes, small lots.

01:44:45 Speaker 07: At times, particularly in winter, there's no street parking, and I would shovel snow so that we could put a car in the front yard and it's grass, and I just think back to that,

01:45:01 Speaker 07: and when I was reading this report, I think in the heavy hand of government getting involved with some people's private property and what they can and cannot do, and what they're limited to do,

01:45:13 Speaker 07: and beyond that, if it has to be hard surfaced, we it's a loss of green space.

01:45:19 Speaker 07: And the manager of engineering touched upon you're increasing load onto the city's infrastructure every time you pave something or throw concrete down for sidewalk.

01:45:30 Speaker 07: Some homes downtown.

01:45:31 Speaker 07: You just go around the valley.

01:45:33 Speaker 07: You see individuals can't park in between their homes at certain times of winter because of snow coming off or ice coming off.

01:45:39 Speaker 07: So they find alternatives.

01:45:41 Speaker 07: And when I read this, I just thought, how?

01:45:45 Speaker 07: What is the significant fees incurred in the current system?

01:45:52 Speaker 07: Because I'm not convinced it happens a lot.

01:45:55 Speaker 07: You gave the one example of one, but is it 18 a year?

01:46:01 Speaker 07: And you can say it's 7,200 in legal fees in the current system, or is it that one example that you cited and 10 complaints?

01:46:08 Speaker 07: Is that eight complaints against the same property?

01:46:10 Speaker 07: Because your numbers can be read in different ways.

01:46:17 Speaker 07: I thought the tracking of mud onto the city sidewalks and roadways, which can create hazardous conditions.

01:46:28 Speaker 07: There's dog excrement all over downtown.

01:46:32 Speaker 07: That you can see the exact same thing for, and there's higher pedestrian counts.

01:46:39 Speaker 07: You could; you talk about risk and what's occupying public space.

01:46:46 Speaker 07: Individuals leave tow packages extended over sidewalks, and kids hit it with scooters, and I've seen them fall.

01:46:53 Speaker 07: Or people hit them.

01:46:53 Speaker 07: They fall.

01:46:54 Speaker 07: There are people hit, but we're not out there finding.

01:46:57 Speaker 07: And I, when I saw this, I just thought, if this almost makes it too easy for government to get involved in people's day-to-day lives, and I'm certainly concerned that we would migrate to any direction.

01:47:14 Speaker 07: Yeah, it could be more expensive in the current system, but we are undertaking a zoning bylaw review.

01:47:20 Speaker 07: There's minimum setbacks you have to meet.

01:47:22 Speaker 07: You have to meet any time that you might have to go through a system for committee of adjustment for variances.

01:47:31 Speaker 07: And the driveway, it's going to hit someone in the pocketbook ten or twelve fourteen thousand dollars for the addition of a driveway.

01:47:39 Speaker 07: And I'm like, is that what we really want to do?

01:47:41 Speaker 07: Is impact people financially in a negative light?

01:47:44 Speaker 07: Because some people; it's punitive, and it might only be short term.

01:47:48 Speaker 07: Maybe someone's had to come back and live at their home for a period of time, and they just need government to be sympathetic and supportive, not heavy-handed.

01:47:59 Speaker 07: And I was very concerned that in reading this, this looks like it makes it very easy for government to get heavy-handed.

01:48:06 Speaker 07: What constitutes a vehicle, a bicycle?

01:48:10 Speaker 07: It was said a scooter.

01:48:11 Speaker 07: Well, Riley has a tough job to do.

01:48:15 Speaker 07: Make no mistake about it.

01:48:16 Speaker 07: That's a tough role, but one.

01:48:18 Speaker 07: But once you put rules in, rules are rules.

01:48:22 Speaker 07: And if you get neighbours that can't get along and can't talk, and someone doesn't like a bicycle lying there, well, rules are rules.

01:48:32 Speaker 07: It constitutes a vehicle as much as a Ford 150, and it leaves it takes away some flexibility.

01:48:42 Speaker 07: So I had a lot of concerns myself with this part of the report.

01:48:46 Speaker 07: Nothing outside of this, but this felt like poking a hornet's nest with a whole bunch of sharp objects.

01:48:57 Speaker 07: So those are my thoughts.

01:48:59 Speaker 07: We don't have a motion yet on the floor, so we've gone around the table, and if I would happily invite a motion at this time, thanks.

01:49:11 Speaker 07: Councillor Kukreja.

01:49:28 Speaker 07: Through your chair, I would like to move all the other recommendations except the recommendation seven mentioned in the report.

01:49:38 Speaker 12: Okay.

01:49:38 Speaker 12: Are there any questions?

01:49:39 Speaker 12: We've got the recommendation on the floor at this time.

01:49:43 Speaker 10: I should just check in with Councillor Hamley.

01:49:45 Speaker 10: Can't see you on screen.

01:49:53 Speaker 10: Councillor Hamley did email me.

01:49:54 Speaker 10: He had to drop off the meeting.

01:49:56 Speaker 10: Okay.

01:49:59 Speaker 10: So, Councillor Hamley is no longer joining the meeting virtually.

01:50:04 Speaker 10: So I'll call the vote at this time.

01:50:05 Speaker 10: All those in favour of that recommendation on the floor.

01:50:08 Speaker 10: Oh yes.

01:50:12 Speaker 10: Oh yeah, the recommendation that Councillor Kukreja has moved.

01:50:17 Speaker 10: All those in favour.

01:50:20 Speaker 10: And that is five in favour.

01:50:23 Speaker 10: All those opposed, and noted that is one opposed.

01:50:27 Speaker 10: That motion carries.

01:50:29 Speaker 10: Okay.

01:50:30 Speaker 10: Thank you very much, Riley, for and Vanon for the report.

01:50:34 Speaker 10: We'll touch upon a lot of the items in the traffic bylaw a little bit here at the end of the meeting again with some kind comments to Chris's career.

01:50:48 Speaker 10: Next report is regarding the winter control operational update.

01:50:53 Speaker 10: So to Lara at this time.

01:50:56 Speaker 10: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

01:50:58 Speaker 10: This report actually covers the years from 2023 to 2025.

01:51:03 Speaker 16: It came to my attention that I hadn't done one in 2024, presumably because there were several other winter-related reports written, and I think they took precedent.

01:51:16 Speaker 16: But anyway, a few interesting statistics comparing 2020 and 2024, 2020 and 2025 winter season to the 2022, no 2023, 2024 winter season.

01:51:32 Speaker 16: In 2023-24, we had three significant weather events for a total of nine days.

01:51:37 Speaker 16: In 2022-23, we had six over 56 days.

01:51:43 Speaker 16: So I think I've said to this group before.

01:51:48 Speaker 16: On the whole, this past winter we didn't have an abnormal amount of snow, but it was relentless.

01:51:55 Speaker 16: So once it started snowing, it kept snowing, essentially for two months.

01:52:01 Speaker 16: So in 23-24, we had one load and haul exercise in the downtown.

01:52:09 Speaker 16: In this past winter, we had to do three, and the report talks a little bit about we tried a couple different methods with the load and haul this past winter.

01:52:21 Speaker 16: We did try to do one during the day, in order to avoid some challenges that we were having with the overnight, you know, with the overnight crew and people driving through road barricades.

01:52:35 Speaker 16: But in the end, we determined that the daytime was too distracting for the operators.

01:52:42 Speaker 16: There was just too many people walking around, people interested in what was going on.

01:52:45 Speaker 16: They were getting too close to the equipment, that kind of thing.

01:52:49 Speaker 16: Let's see my other statistics here.

01:52:56 Speaker 16: So in 2024-25, the sand salt costs were about 69 percent higher than average.

01:53:02 Speaker 16: Again, it makes sense because of the winter that we had with all the significant weather events.

01:53:09 Speaker 16: I think I've said before, but I'll say it again.

01:53:13 Speaker 16: With the back-to-back significant weather events, like with back-to-back snowfalls, it's difficult for us to stay on top of things because we have a sequence that we do a priority sequence.

01:53:24 Speaker 16: But every time it snows again, you essentially have to start back at let's call it A. You might get to D by the end of the workday, but then it snows overnight again.

01:53:37 Speaker 16: So now you're back to A again.

01:53:39 Speaker 16: You never get to the H roads if you wanted to use an alphabet as a sort of an analogy for that.

01:53:47 Speaker 16: So we were getting a little bit behind this past winter with clearing the width of some of the smaller roads.

01:53:56 Speaker 16: We did have to do load and hauls on some local roads as well because the windrows piled up to the point that we needed to free up more space to be able to get traffic

01:54:06 Speaker 16: past each other,

01:54:07 Speaker 16: and for emergency purposes.

01:54:11 Speaker 16: I did include a graph that I drafted from the table that's in the report.

01:54:21 Speaker 16: So the tabular data is the same as what's on the graph, but I did try to show the sort of a visual representation of how our costs go up and down,

01:54:36 Speaker 16: depending obviously on the winter weather is going to make a difference, the type of season you're having, but the treated untreated salt, which is just rock salt, the treated salt,

01:54:48 Speaker 16: which is the green salt that I'm sure everybody has noticed at one point or another.

01:54:54 Speaker 16: Maybe they just came in.

01:54:57 Speaker 16: It just came in by boat this past week, I believe.

01:54:59 Speaker 16: There are big piles of it, and then the treated salt with sand mix.

01:55:06 Speaker 16: And the change to the sand and salt mix was made in order to reduce costs.

01:55:14 Speaker 16: And it does look like overall, it kind of does.

01:55:17 Speaker 16: It's dropped the average, but when we had a winter like the one that we just had, it obviously didn't really.

01:55:27 Speaker 16: Like it's sort of a,

01:55:29 Speaker 16: I think it's a variable that doesn't really help the trend lines because clearly we were quite a bit higher than even some of the costs that we had during the regular rock salt seasons.

01:55:48 Speaker 16: So I think there was one other statistic that I wanted to share with you.

01:55:53 Speaker 16: Oh yeah, spring cleanup.

01:55:54 Speaker 16: With you, oh yes, spring cleanup.

01:55:56 Speaker 16: So both seasons were quite late in the spring.

01:56:01 Speaker 16: In the like last year, 23-24,

01:56:06 Speaker 16: we were a full month later than the normal years for starting on the landscaping repairs and that is the sod repairs and that type of thing that we need to fix.

01:56:19 Speaker 16: When the sidewalk plow goes down the sidewalk, it's very difficult to see where the edge of the concrete is.

01:56:24 Speaker 16: In some cases, it's very common for a bit of sod or topsoil to get scraped, and we go along in the spring and clean all of that up, rake it down, and apply seed.

01:56:38 Speaker 16: And that needs to wait until the ground warms up enough for the seed to actually have a chance of germinating.

01:56:45 Speaker 16: So this past like this spring was still quite late, but not as late as the previous year.

01:56:51 Speaker 16: So anyway, there's quite a few statistics in there.

01:56:54 Speaker 16: I've noticed a few typographic errors in my highlights that I will fix for when the minutes of this meeting I think are published.

01:57:05 Speaker 16: But if anybody has any questions, I would be happy to answer them.

01:57:09 Speaker 16: Okay, thanks for the report, Lara.

01:57:11 Speaker 16: A lot of good information in there.

01:57:13 Speaker 16: I'll go to Councillor Kukreja first.

01:57:16 Speaker 16: Thank you for the report, Lara.

01:57:18 Speaker 16: It is a very good report, and it's always good to see stats which truly highlights the work that is done during the winter maintenance by the staff.

01:57:26 Speaker 12: So it's hats off to the staff for doing all that amazing work.

01:57:30 Speaker 12: So firstly, thank you for this.

01:57:32 Speaker 12: My only question is, like we've had an exceptional winter this year, and while reading the report, and I've witnessed as well that some of the roads which are classified as four, five,

01:57:44 Speaker 12: or low priority roads, because of the significant snow that we've had, like those were on the least of the priority list.

01:57:51 Speaker 12: Not that they were not important as the others, but we just didn't get to that.

01:57:59 Speaker 12: So moving forward, if we anticipate another winter like that, do we have an action plan of how we can tackle so that these roads, rather than going back from A while we reach D,

01:58:13 Speaker 12: then going back to A, that to some extent the H could also be looked at because that eliminates a whole lot of issues for people with the snow windows across their houses, and yeah,

01:58:26 Speaker 12: just like, do we have an action plan moving forward?

01:58:31 Speaker 12: Through the chair, to Councillor Krajac, thank you for that.

01:58:35 Speaker 22: We so the winter maintenance service review project is still ongoing.

01:58:41 Speaker 22: So what I anticipate will be coming out of that will be some changes to our operations from the perspective, in particular, of routes, potentially the number of equipment that we have,

01:58:56 Speaker 22: and with the unions' collabouration, potentially also some changes to our staffing hours and things like that.

01:59:06 Speaker 22: Whether we do two shifts or, you know, I don't want to make any commitments at this point because that's still a long way off.

01:59:13 Speaker 22: But they, you know, we we have.

01:59:15 Speaker 22: discussed it that you know at some point we will look at what makes the most sense for us as a city because there there is we're I think the way that our routes were designed

01:59:28 Speaker 22: was based on the number of vehicles that we have and unfortunately that doesn't really work all that well because you can't finish a route without having to refill at the depot so then you waste

01:59:42 Speaker 22: time going back to the depot and then going back out to where you finished.

01:59:46 Speaker 22: So, there are some efficiencies to be had there that we'll be working on going forward.

01:59:54 Speaker 22: Thank you, Councillor Merton.

01:59:55 Speaker 22: Then Member Anderson.

01:59:57 Speaker 22: After through you, Chair.

02:00:01 Speaker 22: One of the most frequent concerns that Council received was certainly about the sidewalks, and I understand that increasing equipment increases operation costs, increases potential for tax,

02:00:19 Speaker 13: and no one has an appetite for tax to go up.

02:00:23 Speaker 13: However, as you review your winter maintenance operations, has there been or will there be any consideration for the adequacy of the amount of snow plows for sidewalks?

02:00:42 Speaker 13: factored in through the Chair to Kessler Martin.

02:00:47 Speaker 13: Yes, absolutely, that will be a big part of it, because in addition to the road plows and their routes,

02:00:53 Speaker 16: the sidewalk plows and how we that entire line of business will need to be looked at to see if there's a way that we can optimize that and whether that means that.

02:01:05 Speaker 16: Yeah, actually, I'm not even going to speculate, but yes.

02:01:10 Speaker 16: we need to look at everything.

02:01:14 Speaker 16: Okay, thank you, Member Anderson.

02:01:19 Speaker 16: Thank you to you, Mr. Chair.

02:01:21 Speaker 16: Laura, yes, was very good report.

02:01:22 Speaker 16: Thank you very much.

02:01:23 Speaker 16: I'm glad that you identified there were a few spelling errors because my screen reader had some fun reading a few of the words.

02:01:32 Speaker 06: It didn't swear at me, but it was interesting.

02:01:35 Speaker 06: Also, I was glad you included.

02:01:36 Speaker 06: I was glad that you included the information on the brine and the Cargill source that you use.

02:01:44 Speaker 06: I was quite curious about the dye, particularly because I didn't realize we throw dye on our roads.

02:01:49 Speaker 06: And I thought, is my dog coming home with green feet, and I don't know it?

02:01:53 Speaker 06: But then I actually contacted the business, and they explained how it works and what it does.

02:01:58 Speaker 06: So it was nice to have that little resource I could check on my own for myself.

02:02:01 Speaker 06: I was just curious about the sidewalks.

02:02:03 Speaker 06: You mentioned, is it a salt and?

02:02:06 Speaker 06: a rock salt and sand that we tried this past winter that was a little more effective for the sidewalks.

02:02:13 Speaker 06: Through the Chair to Member Anderson, I almost made you a Councillor.

02:02:16 Speaker 22: What do you think about that?

02:02:20 Speaker 22: The it wasn't this past year that there that the different materials were tried.

02:02:26 Speaker 22: It was like several years in the past, I believe.

02:02:29 Speaker 22: My information went back to 2012.

02:02:33 Speaker 22: Yep, 2012.

02:02:34 Speaker 22: Yep, 2012 to 2014, they used untreated salt, so it's just like the big hunks of rock salt, and then from 2014 to 2018, they were using treated salt, just straight, and then after 2018,

02:02:52 Speaker 22: we had started using a two-thirds one-third mix with sand, and you know sand has the benefit of being a lot cheaper per ton.

02:03:03 Speaker 22: However, it also has its own list of problems.

02:03:06 Speaker 22: Like it plugs up our catch basins.

02:03:07 Speaker 22: We have to sweep it, and it only works as well as it's able to maintain its grittiness.

02:03:14 Speaker 22: Too, after an entire year being or sorry, entire winter of being on the road, it gets ground down to almost like a talc.

02:03:24 Speaker 22: So it's very difficult to be able to try to reuse it or salvage it for some meaningful purpose.

02:03:34 Speaker 22: So anyway, the treated salt is a good product.

02:03:38 Speaker 22: It's pre-wet, so it starts working as soon as it's applied, and it has some calcium chloride, I believe, built into it, so that it's not as high of a sodium content.

02:03:51 Speaker 22: So it's not supposed to be as corrosive.

02:03:55 Speaker 22: Still, you know, I wouldn't think that it's necessarily like the best thing that we should be using tons and tons of, but it's better than some of the alternatives.

02:04:05 Speaker 22: So I guess that it's a fine balance to try to find something that works as good as possible without being overly expensive, and then also meeting the needs of safety and environmental compatibility.

02:04:22 Speaker 22: So, thank you.

02:04:26 Speaker 22: Thank you.

02:04:27 Speaker 22: Any further questions?

02:04:29 Speaker 22: Not seeing any.

02:04:31 Speaker 22: Glad to see the information.

02:04:32 Speaker 22: Glad to hear the response to Councillor Kukreja's question.

02:04:36 Speaker 10: I've thought this for several years now, and this year highlighted.

02:04:39 Speaker 10: There's a multitude of places around town where you see the plow following its rigid route, and not deviating away from it.

02:04:52 Speaker 10: And seeing some side streets that just leave you contemplating, like why don't we just turn down that side street?

02:04:57 Speaker 10: just once?

02:04:57 Speaker 10: And it went by it eight times in a row.

02:05:00 Speaker 10: Just once, can we maybe go through and support all the residents in a higher level of service?

02:05:09 Speaker 10: I do have a question.

02:05:13 Speaker 10: Is do the stats account for the vector truck and the sweeper time because of the higher sand content?

02:05:22 Speaker 10: I was just wondering that in the report.

02:05:25 Speaker 10: To the Chair, no, it wouldn't.

02:05:29 Speaker 22: It's just the purchase cost that we would have included in those amounts.

02:05:34 Speaker 22: Okay, so in that winter service review, we'll see perhaps more consideration of the actual amount of staffing time and resources that goes into seasonal cleanup,

02:05:46 Speaker 10: which is considerable because some curbs it's like four inches deep, and that's a lot of staff time that has to be recouped, cleaning all that up.

02:05:58 Speaker 10: So, just thanks for that response there.

02:06:02 Speaker 10: Let's see, we have a recommendation before us that City Council receive the report for information purposes.

02:06:10 Speaker 10: Should there be a mover of that recommendation, Arlene?

02:06:14 Speaker 10: Indo has so moved.

02:06:16 Speaker 10: Any further questions?

02:06:17 Speaker 10: Not seeing.

02:06:18 Speaker 10: Oh, Member Hawkins.

02:06:19 Speaker 10: Before I call the vote, I see I'll recognize you.

02:06:22 Speaker 10: Go ahead.

02:06:23 Speaker 10: Oh, just I think there was a comment from the gentleman that's not here tonight, Mike.

02:06:32 Speaker 15: Yes, thank you.

02:06:33 Speaker 15: If I could just—that was emailed to staff.

02:06:35 Speaker 03: Perhaps staff with the opportunity just to comment to the members' comments that were submitted through the Chair to the committee.

02:06:45 Speaker 03: Going by memory, I believe he was commenting primarily about making sure that we are able to correlate the costs with the characteristics of the winter weather for that particular season,

02:07:01 Speaker 16: and that is something that can be done.

02:07:03 Speaker 16: It's just I wasn't able to do it for this report, but more than likely for one of the service review reports or multiple,

02:07:11 Speaker 16: that will be part of it to have a more representative correlation between weather and costs, because just like with you know if I'm going to go down a rabbit hole,

02:07:29 Speaker 16: just like with looking for extraneous flow in a sanitary sewer, you would look for okay rainfall and then the effect in the flows in the pipes.

02:07:40 Speaker 16: So that will be the same exercise with snow event costs go up no snow costs should be down lower, so there should be a relationship there.

02:07:55 Speaker 16: Thank you for that reminder.

02:07:56 Speaker 16: Councillor Merton had also mentioned that, and that left me in the moment.

02:08:04 Speaker 16: All those in favour?

02:08:05 Speaker 16: Us?

02:08:06 Speaker 16: Yes.

02:08:06 Speaker 16: So, Member Indo has so moved the recommendation to receive, for informational purposes.

02:08:10 Speaker 10: All those in favour, and that is carried unanimously.

02:08:14 Speaker 10: Thank you.

02:08:15 Speaker 10: So, our last report is under water and wastewater.

02:08:18 Speaker 10: It's a report from the Director of Public Works and Engineering regarding the Water Management Bylaw.

02:08:25 Speaker 10: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

02:08:27 Speaker 10: So this report and bylaw are primarily motivated by the water metre project, because as we're getting into about 40 percent complete with that project,

02:08:39 Speaker 16: we're now starting to accumulate a little bit of a list of property owners that are refusing access for the metre inspection and installations for a variety of reasons.

02:08:49 Speaker 16: So this bylaw will give us the mechanism to enforce that they are required to provide us access.

02:08:59 Speaker 16: And some of it, I think, is like what we were talking about with the traffic bylaw that people don't realize that the water metre isn't something that you can opt out of.

02:09:14 Speaker 16: Like you have to have it, and it belongs to the City, and you're required to provide it in a location where it can be inspected, if needed.

02:09:24 Speaker 16: So there will be a big communication plan around that.

02:09:27 Speaker 16: While we were at it, we took the opportunity to consolidate and add in a bunch of other aspects of water bylaws that are normally in place for a municipality,

02:09:42 Speaker 16: including hydrant usage and mandatory connection—that you can't opt out of being connected to the municipal water system.

02:09:51 Speaker 16: Like somebody in a subdivision can't drill their own well, for example, they have to be connected.

02:09:57 Speaker 16: And appropriate usage again, the requirement to have their water shut off, their main water shut off in their house in good working order.

02:10:09 Speaker 16: So if there's an emergency inside the house, they don't need to call the City to operate their curb stop in order to shut off the water to their property.

02:10:19 Speaker 16: There's a number of different clauses in there.

02:10:23 Speaker 16: I should note that the bylaw that would ultimately be enacted,

02:10:29 Speaker 16: even if this committee had no comments whatsoever—which I'm guessing you will have some comments—the bylaw that ultimately would get signed by the Mayor and Clerk may be slightly different because I'm still going through some

02:10:44 Speaker 16: last-minute consultations with our Clerk and with various other staff just to make sure that we've got everything exactly the way it needs to be.

02:10:53 Speaker 16: But substantially, it will be as you saw in your package.

02:10:59 Speaker 16: I think it would be easiest if you just ask questions because it is a fairly lengthy document, and I don't want to guess what you might have questions about.

02:11:10 Speaker 16: Yes, it is a lengthy document.

02:11:12 Speaker 03: Thank you very much, Lara, and to the floor for any questions.

02:11:18 Speaker 03: Not seeing any.

02:11:19 Speaker 03: Well, that's a well-written report.

02:11:20 Speaker 03: I do see Donald Anderson.

02:11:21 Speaker 03: Go ahead, Donald.

02:11:24 Speaker 03: So, Mr. Chair, just a curiosity.

02:11:26 Speaker 03: By any chance, do we have any buildings in our city that actually have the units linked up to water metres?

02:11:34 Speaker 06: And if not, is this—and if not, is that something that might be potentially in the future with further dense population developments like apartment buildings?

02:11:46 Speaker 06: Through the Chair to Member Anderson, that is an excellent question.

02:11:50 Speaker 16: We have there would be condominium situations where each individual unit would have their own water metre, but generally the policy should be that one water metre per property,

02:12:01 Speaker 16: unless it's like a multi-apartment building type complex.

02:12:02 Speaker 16: Of apartment building type complex, that's also written into the bylaw.

02:12:06 Speaker 16: Actually, like Engineering or, it says the Director, but it's essentially a designate of the City as—whatever is delegated—to determine what is appropriate for that particular situation,

02:12:20 Speaker 16: depending on the number of water services that need to be provided to that site.

02:12:25 Speaker 16: But the principle with water metres is that you want, as a municipality, we want to have the water metre as close to the entry point of where it enters a building as possible,

02:12:35 Speaker 16: so that it minimizes the chance that somebody has tapped off pipes before it gets to the metre.

02:12:43 Speaker 16: So, in the case of an apartment building, it is—it is possible and it is sometimes done that property managers or landlords will have suite metres, like for each individual unit.

02:12:57 Speaker 16: That would be their—like those would be their metres, and they would use those for however they want to bill their tenants.

02:13:05 Speaker 16: But that would be an agreement, like an arrangement between the tenant and the landlord, not the City.

02:13:11 Speaker 16: The City would just bill whoever is registered as the account holder for that property for the amount of water that essentially passes into the building,

02:13:20 Speaker 16: and how they split it up amongst their tenants would be up to them.

02:13:28 Speaker 16: Thank you for that.

02:13:30 Speaker 16: Not seeing any further questions.

02:13:31 Speaker 16: I've got one.

02:13:32 Speaker 16: I'm going to ask.

02:13:34 Speaker 16: I like policies that still maintain some degree of flexibility.

02:13:38 Speaker 03: And currently, we have some flexibility with staff, with water bill adjustments.

02:13:45 Speaker 03: And I was a little concerned with language that speaks to the City will cease to accept applications for water bill adjustments at the staff level.

02:13:54 Speaker 03: They could still come to Council.

02:13:58 Speaker 03: Frankly, I don't think many individuals would ever choose to put themselves in front of the public on a Monday night and have that concern placed before Council.

02:14:09 Speaker 03: I like the system as it is, and I don't, as a Councillor, need to be aware of those minute-level decisions that staff make using best judgment.

02:14:28 Speaker 03: There are instances, I guess, that could occur, and our risk is lessened when we go to the monthly water billing as opposed to the quarterly.

02:14:36 Speaker 03: So we have at this Committee seen occasionally some concerns brought forward, but at a Councillor level, you get the odd concern as well,

02:14:45 Speaker 03: and it's nice to hear that there's some ability for staff to respond.

02:14:50 Speaker 03: I have seen individuals accessing taps who are not the property owners, particularly downtown, and if you could foresee every circumstance or potentiality,

02:15:08 Speaker 03: we wouldn't have items like perhaps zoning bylaw amendments because we would have captured everything when we did the zoning bylaw.

02:15:15 Speaker 03: So perhaps if staff could speak to that forthcoming inability in the bylaw to have staff offered the opportunity to exercise their professional judgment should the occasional requirement populate.

02:15:36 Speaker 03: That's the one part of this report that gave me pause.

02:15:41 Speaker 03: Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the thoughtful comment.

02:15:44 Speaker 22: I do see your point, and I will try to speak to it.

02:15:50 Speaker 22: The reason why that change was made in the first place was to get to a point where property owners are accepting the responsibility for the maintenance of their own equipment, like their own fixtures,

02:16:08 Speaker 22: like toilets, their own hot water tanks.

02:16:10 Speaker 22: Because, and, and this is the frame of mind where I was coming at this with,

02:16:17 Speaker 22: is that very often the type of requests that you'll get are a landlord hasn't maintained the hot water tank for a couple decades and it blows, and the tenant doesn't go in the basement,

02:16:33 Speaker 22: so they didn't notice that it was spilling water for three weeks.

02:16:38 Speaker 22: While a sympathetic situation, that's also not necessarily something.

02:16:44 Speaker 22: At least in my opinion, everybody has the right to make their own judgment on this, whether the water users should be paying for so that that type of situation is where this was coming from.

02:16:56 Speaker 22: I will also speak to your comment about using professional judgment at the staff level.

02:17:02 Speaker 22: That well, I appreciate where you're going with that.

02:17:08 Speaker 22: To give staff the ability or the power to make those decisions in a way is almost how do you choose?

02:17:24 Speaker 22: Like, where does the line get drawn?

02:17:25 Speaker 22: Right, like get drawn.

02:17:27 Speaker 22: Staff needs, I think, a framework of what council considers acceptable and what is not acceptable.

02:17:33 Speaker 22: If you were, if you went away on vacation and you left your air conditioner set at fifteen degrees the whole time you were gone,

02:17:45 Speaker 22: would you call the hydro company and ask them for a rebate on your hydro bill?

02:17:49 Speaker 22: Probably not.

02:17:50 Speaker 22: But often the requests that staff would get again are somebody left the sprinkler on overnight, and they now have an additional fifteen dollars or whatever on their water bill.

02:18:02 Speaker 22: Depends on how long you left it on.

02:18:06 Speaker 22: So these are these are the small things that it's important to start training people to take responsibility for.

02:18:15 Speaker 22: And while Owen Sound is a beautiful place, that we have had a lot of these legacy policies that we do have.

02:18:22 Speaker 22: Leak forgiveness, if we really want to be fiscally responsible, we need to set a bit more of a means and bounds around that.

02:18:36 Speaker 22: So, if it needs to be more of a dialogueueueueueueueueueueueueueueueueueueueueueueueueueueueueueueue about like I don't know an unforeseen catastrophe, or maybe something that is not due to lack of maintenance or something.

02:18:53 Speaker 22: We could maybe put in wording in there about that, or not due to negligence or something.

02:19:00 Speaker 22: We we could maybe look at it that way.