Owen Sound Council Meeting - Special Meeting Transcript — April 28, 2025

00:04:58 Speaker 02: So I'm calling the meeting to order.

00:05:00 Speaker 02: Are there any declarations of interest?

00:05:05 Speaker 03: Just to say, Your Worship, I'm okay for the education portion, but if there is any subsequent motions coming out of the conversation, I may have to at that point take a point.

00:05:14 Speaker 03: Because, because I work for the Government of Ontario.

00:05:18 Speaker 03: Yes, thank you.

00:05:19 Speaker 03: Thank you, Councillor Farmer.

00:05:21 Speaker 03: I think you've got motions.

00:05:24 Speaker 03: It's a confirmation of council minutes.

00:05:30 Speaker 04: Move by myself, seconded by Deputy Mayor Greig, that the minutes of the Special County of Grey Joint All Councils Meeting held on April Seventeenth, Twenty Twenty-Five, be adopted as printed.

00:05:41 Speaker 04: Thank you.

00:05:42 Speaker 04: All in favour.

00:05:43 Speaker 04: That's carried.

00:05:44 Speaker 04: Councillor Dodd, I can't see him.

00:05:46 Speaker 04: Here we go.

00:05:48 Speaker 04: In favour.

00:05:49 Speaker 04: So that is carried.

00:05:50 Speaker 02: Number four, motion to move council into committee of the whole.

00:05:56 Speaker 04: Move by myself, seconded by Deputy Mayor Greig, that City Council now move into committee of the whole to consider deputations and presentations and reports of city staff.

00:06:07 Speaker 04: Great.

00:06:07 Speaker 04: And all in favour?

00:06:09 Speaker 04: That's carried.

00:06:10 Speaker 04: Councillor Dodd's hand is up.

00:06:12 Speaker 04: That is carried.

00:06:14 Speaker 04: So we are in committee of the whole.

00:06:16 Speaker 05: Number five A. We have a presentation from John Mascaren, of Aird & Berless.

00:06:21 Speaker 05: I'm going to go to Mr. Simmonds first.

00:06:25 Speaker 05: Thank you, Mayor, members of Council.

00:06:26 Speaker 06: I'm really pleased to introduce John Mascaren to us and all of you.

00:06:31 Speaker 06: I've known John for a number of years.

00:06:33 Speaker 06: John is a solicitor with Aird & Berless.

00:06:36 Speaker 06: He's recognized across the province as one of the top experts in municipal planning and local government law.

00:06:41 Speaker 06: He's especially well known for his expertise in the Municipal Act and everything to do with municipal powers and governance.

00:06:47 Speaker 06: You'll often find him appearing before councils across Ontario.

00:06:52 Speaker 06: So I'd say we're fortunate to have him with us today.

00:06:54 Speaker 06: And as we dive into strong mayor powers,

00:06:57 Speaker 06: with the recent announcement that the Government of Ontario is continuing to bolster the unilateral decision-making powers of mayors across the province with a proposal to expand the strong mayor powers to one hundred and sixty-nine

00:07:09 Speaker 06: additional municipalities effective later this week,

00:07:12 Speaker 06: May 1st, and that also includes Owen Sound.

00:07:16 Speaker 06: For just brief context, in two thousand and twenty-two, through changes to the Municipal Act, strong mayor powers were first granted to the heads of councils in Toronto and Ottawa,

00:07:25 Speaker 06: and then to mayors in forty-eight additional municipalities in two thousand and twenty-three.

00:07:30 Speaker 06: And with that, Mayor, I'd like to welcome John Mascaren to Owen Sound City Council.

00:07:36 Speaker 06: Good afternoon, Mr. Mayor, members of council, and thank you to CAO Simmonds for that kind introduction.

00:07:42 Speaker 06: It's my pleasure to be here today, Mr. Mayor.

00:07:45 Speaker 07: I have prepared a PowerPoint presentation, and I would like to share my screen to run it.

00:07:51 Speaker 07: If that's all right with you, yes, it is.

00:07:54 Speaker 02: And Madam Clerk will help where needed.

00:07:58 Speaker 02: Terrific.

00:07:58 Speaker 02: Thank you.

00:08:07 Speaker 02: I believe the slide deck is up on the screen.

00:08:13 Speaker 02: Is it not, Mr. Mayor?

00:08:14 Speaker 02: Yes, it is.

00:08:14 Speaker 02: It's starting with strong mayor powers.

00:08:16 Speaker 02: The first slide.

00:08:17 Speaker 02: Yes, thank you very much.

00:08:18 Speaker 07: So, Mr. Mayor, I appreciate that you and certain members of your council may have attended the Grey County joint meeting where I also presented on strong mayors.

00:08:32 Speaker 07: I have condensed, and hopefully made the presentation a little bit more concise than what you saw that day.

00:08:40 Speaker 07: I am leaving off the first portion of it, the introductory portion, and some of my op-ed about the statute.

00:08:49 Speaker 07: And I'll try to focus in particularly on the powers, responsibilities,

00:08:55 Speaker 07: and obligations under the statute as it is now and as it is proposed to apply to the City of Owen Sound as of May 1st,

00:09:07 Speaker 07: and the potential for 168 other municipalities to get the powers.

00:09:14 Speaker 07: So I will start on it.

00:09:16 Speaker 07: There are four sources for the powers.

00:09:20 Speaker 07: They relate to two statutes and two regulations.

00:09:24 Speaker 07: You have to read these together.

00:09:27 Speaker 07: The statutory references are primarily to, well, almost exclusively to Part Six Point One of the Municipal Act, and this is because the Strong Mayors Building Homes Act, which was Bill 3 back in 2022,

00:09:45 Speaker 07: added this entirely new part, which is supposed to be the standalone authority for strong mayor powers in Ontario.

00:09:53 Speaker 07: Bill 39 came a few months later.

00:09:55 Speaker 07: I believe it was October of that year, after the Strong Mayor legislation had been enacted at the end of August and added one more part, one more section to Part Six Point One.

00:10:08 Speaker 07: But that's a very significant section, and I will speak to that.

00:10:12 Speaker 07: There are two regulations that are applicable.

00:10:15 Speaker 07: The first regulation is Regulation 530/22, and that is the actual regulation that will list the municipalities that have been designated by the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing.

00:10:29 Speaker 07: So, Section 284.2 of the Municipal Act actually empowers the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, Rob Flack, to now make decisions on which municipalities to designate for strong mayor powers.

00:10:44 Speaker 07: That's in Section 1 of the regulation.

00:10:46 Speaker 07: The other provisions of that regulation relate to technical or procedural requirements that must be followed with respect to the implementation of the powers under Part Six Point One of the Municipal Act.

00:11:05 Speaker 07: The second regulation, Regulation 580/22, is very key, and that is the regulation that sets out prescribed provincial priorities.

00:11:15 Speaker 07: I will show it to you in just a moment.

00:11:17 Speaker 07: It's probably very well known to you, and that you'll see that there are a certain type of power in the strong mayor powers that relate exclusively to provincial priorities.

00:11:30 Speaker 07: So, what the government has set out as its priority is what it allows the strong mayor to exercise.

00:11:40 Speaker 07: The rollout—I won't speak to it in any detail.

00:11:45 Speaker 07: Mr. Simmonds has already made some references to this, so I'll just leave this for you.

00:11:52 Speaker 07: You'll see that there was one.

00:11:55 Speaker 07: There's actually, I think, four tranches.

00:11:59 Speaker 07: But someone will point out that the City of Aurora was given powers slightly ahead of May 1st on April 3rd.

00:12:08 Speaker 07: And interestingly enough, both the Minister and the Mayor of Aurora commented that those powers were to deal with the state of emergency.

00:12:18 Speaker 07: Just let me say very clearly the purpose of the strong mayor powers is supposed to be to drive new housing in the province.

00:12:27 Speaker 07: So there was a different articulation for why the City of Orleans was given temporary powers at that time to deal with the state of emergency,

00:12:38 Speaker 07: which isn't the reason why other municipalities have been given strong mayor powers or are proposed to be given strong mayor powers.

00:12:47 Speaker 07: So I'm just going to focus now on the powers and Mr. Mayor.

00:12:50 Speaker 07: I didn't ask the question, but I'll try to keep my presentation concise.

00:12:56 Speaker 07: I don't mind taking questions throughout, or it's in your hands.

00:13:01 Speaker 07: I can take them throughout, or you can just wait till I'm finished.

00:13:06 Speaker 07: If you'd like, I can take a break at certain key points in this.

00:13:10 Speaker 07: So I'm in your hands, Mr. Mayor, as to what you'd like to do.

00:13:14 Speaker 08: I think we're patient and can wait, or if you want to take breaks along the way where it's convenient for you, we can maybe take some.

00:13:21 Speaker 08: But I suspect we're going to get to the end, and you'll get a flurry of questions at that point.

00:13:26 Speaker 08: So please go ahead.

00:13:27 Speaker 08: Terrific.

00:13:28 Speaker 08: Okay, thank you, Mr. Mayor.

00:13:29 Speaker 07: So there are four types of powers that have been given under the statute.

00:13:34 Speaker 07: I've categorized them in these categories: the administrative powers, the provincial priority powers, the budget power, or as some mayors have referred to it as the budget responsibility or duty,

00:13:49 Speaker 07: and then I've put in a bunch of things that I call miscellaneous.

00:13:54 Speaker 07: I'm not sure that they're powers, but they certainly are certain authorities that are related to the strong mayor powers.

00:14:00 Speaker 07: So let's go to the first one: administrative powers.

00:14:04 Speaker 07: As you probably have heard and you probably read in the Collingwood judicial inquiry, there was very clear enunciation by Justice Moroc as the public inquiry commissioner, sorry, judicial inquiry commissioner,

00:14:20 Speaker 07: where he said no member of staff, including the mayor, has any unilateral authority to direct staff to do certain things unless the member has been delegated.

00:14:31 Speaker 07: Well, that's now changed partially under the strong mayor powers.

00:14:36 Speaker 07: The mayor now in a designated municipality is authorised to give directions to municipal employees.

00:14:45 Speaker 07: That is the word.

00:14:46 Speaker 07: Municipal employees to undertake research, implement decisions, and provide advice to the head of council and to the municipality.

00:14:57 Speaker 07: I've been asked, does it entail like all municipal employees?

00:15:02 Speaker 07: And the language is actually municipal employees, so it doesn't just say senior municipal staff.

00:15:08 Speaker 07: It does talk about the mayor being able to do so for staff to undertake research and implement decisions, and you'll see that that language is very much borrowed from Section 228 of the Municipal Act,

00:15:23 Speaker 07: where that is the role of municipal staff to do so on behalf of council.

00:15:30 Speaker 07: So that's why the language in the Collingwood Judicial Inquiry report only talked about council being able to do so.

00:15:37 Speaker 07: The mayor in a strong mayor municipality is now going to be able to give directions to staff, but it's not necessarily as broad as you might think.

00:15:47 Speaker 07: Even though it's quite significant, the head can give directions to staff only with respect to matters relating to Part Six Point One.

00:15:59 Speaker 07: That extends to the exercise of the general control and management of the affairs of the municipality, and the advancing or not interfering with potential provincial priorities.

00:16:14 Speaker 07: Okay, and I'll speak about those in just a moment.

00:16:17 Speaker 07: All directions that are given cannot be done orally or verbally.

00:16:23 Speaker 07: They must be set out in writing, and the directions have to be disclosed to the members of council, and in certain instances, subject to EPHIPA, to the public as well,

00:16:39 Speaker 07: so there has to be some transparency and accountability on the directions given.

00:16:45 Speaker 07: They can't be secret directions that are given.

00:16:48 Speaker 07: The power now of the municipality to retain a CAO and to appoint and to revoke the appointment of a CAO is to council under Section 229.

00:17:02 Speaker 07: This authority has now been vested, or will now be vested, in the Mayor of Owen Sound as of May 1st, so the mayor will have the authority to hire and fire,

00:17:16 Speaker 07: appoint and revoke the appointment of the CAO of the municipality.

00:17:21 Speaker 07: That has been taken away from council, subject to the mayor being able to delegate back those authorities.

00:17:29 Speaker 07: And I will speak about those in a moment.

00:17:32 Speaker 07: The next part, there are provisions dealing with prescribed local boards and prescribed committees and certain powers that run with them.

00:17:42 Speaker 07: Let me make it easy for you.

00:17:44 Speaker 07: There are no prescribed local boards at this time.

00:17:49 Speaker 07: The language of the statute talks about prescribed local boards.

00:17:53 Speaker 07: In this context, prescribed means by regulation.

00:17:58 Speaker 07: And if you look at Regulation 530/22, there are no prescribed local boards.

00:18:07 Speaker 07: There are, however, prescribed committees, and the definition in Section 4 of the regulation says a prescribed committee means a committee composed of all members of council.

00:18:22 Speaker 07: Okay, so it's not any committee.

00:18:25 Speaker 07: It's not any committee under Section 238 of the Municipal Act, which could include members of council and lay persons, persons in their personal capacity.

00:18:37 Speaker 07: This only applies to committees of council.

00:18:42 Speaker 07: So, what are the authorities?

00:18:44 Speaker 07: The mayor is able to constitute committees of council.

00:18:49 Speaker 07: Is able to revoke or dissolve committees of council.

00:18:53 Speaker 07: Is able to provide their terms of reference and functions, and is able to appoint chairs and deputy chairs to these committees.

00:19:04 Speaker 07: Again, those committees are only prescribed committees, and those are only committees comprising of all members of council.

00:19:11 Speaker 07: So, if you have existing committees right now, and they're comprised of members of council and members of the public, there is no authority for strong mayor to do anything with those committees.

00:19:25 Speaker 07: However, if there are committees of council, this one that I'm speaking at, the Committee of the Whole.

00:19:31 Speaker 07: The mayor may dissolve the committee.

00:19:33 Speaker 07: The mayor may appoint the chair and vice-chair, and the mayor may set the terms of reference or the functions for those committees and establish new ones.

00:19:43 Speaker 07: Okay.

00:19:44 Speaker 07: Finally, with respect to administrative powers, the power to organise or reorganise the structure of the municipality now is given over to the mayor,

00:19:59 Speaker 07: and concomitant with that authority to reset the organisational structure of the municipality is the mayor's authority to hire and fire certain heads of the municipality's divisions or persons who head divisions of the municipality.

00:20:24 Speaker 07: I refer to them as also department heads because that's how I think of them.

00:20:28 Speaker 07: The language of the statute actually refers to division heads, and people ask me, "What does that mean?"

00:20:36 Speaker 07: And my answer is, "If you can show me your organisational structure, and I can speak with your head of HR, I might understand what a division head is."

00:20:46 Speaker 07: It may, in a large municipality, a large organised municipality, include hundreds of persons: commissioners, directors, deputy city managers, supervisors, potentially, and so on.

00:21:06 Speaker 07: In a smaller municipality, it may relate only to certain persons who are only directors, or they could be potentially managers, or it could go further down to supervisors.

00:21:20 Speaker 07: But I wouldn't know until I look at your particular structure of your municipality, and that's really a determination that your HR manager or director is able to advise you on.

00:21:34 Speaker 07: Now, the authority for the mayor to hire and fire division heads does not include any division head who is a statutory officer or is a person who has been required to be appointed by council,

00:21:56 Speaker 07: and so it includes persons like officers like the clerk, the deputy clerk, the treasurer, deputy treasurer, the integrity commissioner, the chief building official, the fire chief, the auditor, and so on.

00:22:11 Speaker 07: There's a list of I think fourteen different persons, and it also includes other officers who are required to be appointed by any act.

00:22:22 Speaker 07: I'll give you one or two examples: building inspectors that are required to be appointed by council under section 23(2) of the Building Code Act, or by law enforcement officers under the Provincial Offences Act.

00:22:38 Speaker 07: Those are persons required to be appointed by council to carry out duties, and those persons cannot be removed by the mayor.

00:22:47 Speaker 07: Any existing organisational structure remains in place unless it's revised,

00:22:52 Speaker 07: and any persons who are in place as of the date when the strong mayor powers come into force retain all of their statutory authorities and all of their employment law entitlements.

00:23:09 Speaker 07: Things that have vested.

00:23:11 Speaker 07: One example: the mayor would like to, after May 1st, possibly terminate the employment of a division head; that division head may have been at the municipality for many years, may have enjoyed certain entitlements,

00:23:26 Speaker 07: and on termination, that person would be entitled to notice, severance, and potentially any damages that may run with their entitlements under employment law.

00:23:43 Speaker 07: It doesn't mean that the mayor can terminate someone with impunity.

00:23:49 Speaker 07: There may be a consequence to the mayor making certain decisions under these employment law, corporate organisational powers.

00:24:01 Speaker 07: Okay, but the mayor can remove someone from their position if they're entitled to, and it doesn't need to have cause.

00:24:10 Speaker 07: Can do it without cause, but that will carry a consequence.

00:24:14 Speaker 07: And I know probably a lot of you have watched and seen what has happened in the City of Aurelia with the powers that were given there,

00:24:22 Speaker 07: and it's very clear that the person who was hired to be the CAO, who hadn't started his appointment, but who had been actually hired and had been appointed by council,

00:24:39 Speaker 07: will be entitled to certain recompense for having done so in good faith, and then having been effectively terminated by the mayor.

00:24:51 Speaker 07: Okay, so Mr. Mayor, that was my first break on the administrative powers.

00:24:58 Speaker 07: If anyone should have any questions, I'm happy to take any at this time.

00:25:03 Speaker 07: Thank you.

00:25:04 Speaker 07: I've got two.

00:25:04 Speaker 07: I'm going to start with Councillor Farmer.

00:25:06 Speaker 07: Thank you, through the mayor.

00:25:08 Speaker 04: This is a question that's in the questions that we submitted, but while we're talking about administrative powers specifically, Calladine had a similar situation where the mayor unilaterally removed the city manager, CAO,

00:25:22 Speaker 04: hired someone of their own choosing, and council was not immediately privy to the details of that contract or what went along there.

00:25:32 Speaker 04: I'm curious whether there is, I guess, I'm curious: does council by default get that kind of access to information?

00:25:43 Speaker 04: A cabinet councillor had to file a freedom of information request, and I'm wondering whether, if these powers are instituted, this is something that our own bylaws could ensure our access to transparency and information on,

00:25:57 Speaker 04: or whether that's something that would again be superseded by the legislation.

00:26:03 Speaker 04: Thank you, Councillor Farmer.

00:26:05 Speaker 07: Through you, Mr. Mayor, that's an excellent question.

00:26:08 Speaker 07: Something that I think we'll have to grapple with as we go along with this.

00:26:13 Speaker 07: Right now, the legislation's silent.

00:26:15 Speaker 07: It doesn't say anything about it.

00:26:17 Speaker 07: And you're right.

00:26:17 Speaker 07: In Calladine, a member of council had to file an FOI request.

00:26:23 Speaker 07: And up to that date, I think many people thought that CAO contracts, like other contracts at a municipality, would be protected under personal information.

00:26:34 Speaker 07: But I think the argument was there: Section 16 of MTPA, which says there's a compelling public interest, and I think the IPC made the decision that there was a compelling public interest,

00:26:46 Speaker 07: especially in the context of how it happened.

00:26:50 Speaker 07: And I think that's partly what you're asking, Councillor Farmer: is this entirely new, and we know the mayor has this authority, but is there any transparency, accountability, and such like?

00:27:01 Speaker 07: There's nothing that the legislation speaks to, so I'll answer.

00:27:06 Speaker 07: I'll try to answer it this way, and I'll stand to be proven incorrect.

00:27:12 Speaker 07: But I suppose the municipality could put in procedures, protocols, and how business may be conducted.

00:27:22 Speaker 07: And I suppose it is up to the mayor, in certain instances, to say that conflicts or frustrates the purposes of what I am trying to do under the statute.

00:27:33 Speaker 07: So, for instance, all of these decisions have to be made in public, so to speak, because there has to be formal decisions in writing.

00:27:45 Speaker 07: But that doesn't carry with it well: What did a mayor consider in terminating an employee, or what did they consider in retaining or engaging a new employee?

00:27:57 Speaker 07: Did they follow the hiring policies of the municipality?

00:28:01 Speaker 07: Did they look out for certain qualifications and criteria that the municipality has always put in place to hire senior staff, or did they look aside?

00:28:10 Speaker 07: Did they follow the grade structure for pay, for instance, or did they decide to ignore it altogether?

00:28:18 Speaker 07: I think those are all questions that may be decided in the future.

00:28:22 Speaker 07: I think a municipality can certainly seek to try to govern or regulate some of those things, but I can certainly see there being some tension and misalignment at certain points,

00:28:35 Speaker 07: and potentially a mayor taking the position this may frustrate what I'm trying to do here, or may conflict directly with what the statute otherwise requires, and may find that it doesn't:

00:28:53 Speaker 07: the bylaw or policy that's put in place is ineffective under Section 14 of the Municipal Act.

00:29:03 Speaker 07: Councillor Hamley, you said one thing that really kind of confused me.

00:29:10 Speaker 03: Just as it relates to committees and dissolving committees, if the mayor were to dissolve the committee of the whole, how would council meet and make any kind of decision at all?

00:29:24 Speaker 03: Through you, Mr. Mayor.

00:29:25 Speaker 07: I think, Councillor Hamley, the council would meet as council, not as Committee of the Whole.

00:29:29 Speaker 07: The mayor could dissolve the committee and say we're not meeting, and could possibly go back and say, for example, I will reconstitute the committee of the whole, but it will only deal with these things,

00:29:42 Speaker 07: not maybe what now the Committee of the Whole deals with.

00:29:45 Speaker 07: So that's, I think, what I intended to mean.

00:29:52 Speaker 07: Does that answer?

00:29:54 Speaker 07: Does it?

00:29:56 Speaker 07: I think that was yeah.

00:29:57 Speaker 08: Does as best as Roli, Councillor Koepke.

00:30:03 Speaker 08: Thank you, Your Worship.

00:30:04 Speaker 09: Through you, just a question regarding the strong mayor power in the administration section.

00:30:11 Speaker 09: Does council have any option to oppose the decisions of the mayor?

00:30:20 Speaker 09: Yeah, through you, Mr. Mayor.

00:30:22 Speaker 09: That's that's the key question.

00:30:24 Speaker 07: I've been asked: is there no mechanism here to look at or review or challenge a mayor exercising strong mayor powers?

00:30:36 Speaker 07: And the legislation doesn't build anything into this except that.

00:30:42 Speaker 07: And I'll show it to you a little bit later, Councillor.

00:30:45 Speaker 07: There is an immunity provision that basically says the decisions made by a mayor are immune from challenge, provided there's a couple of carve-outs, and I will speak to that.

00:30:58 Speaker 07: But there is nothing set up that provides any fast, quick mechanism for a council to go.

00:31:09 Speaker 07: I think, Mr. Mayor, you're exceeding your authority, and you shouldn't be able to do that.

00:31:15 Speaker 07: I think what the province has set up is a system where the mayor is given the powers, and any challenges will likely be through the courts,

00:31:24 Speaker 07: so I do think coming forward that you may see challenges where the mayor has done something, and council says I don't agree with that,

00:31:33 Speaker 07: and I'm going to go to court to challenge the mayor's authority to do it.

00:31:38 Speaker 07: I believe you'll probably see that emanating from the City of Owen Sound sooner rather than later.

00:31:47 Speaker 07: Councillor Burton, through you, Mayor, just... um...

00:31:50 Speaker 07: Through you, Mayor.

00:31:50 Speaker 10: Just before I ask the question, I just need clarification.

00:31:54 Speaker 10: I know that we had submitted a long list of questions, and wondering whether the process for answering those.

00:32:05 Speaker 10: I'm assuming, Brandy, you sent those ahead, right?

00:32:08 Speaker 10: Yeah.

00:32:08 Speaker 10: So there are some really important things about what we need to be looking towards and putting in place should these be enacted May 1st for Owen Sound.

00:32:18 Speaker 10: May 1st for Owen Sound, so I would certainly appreciate having those questions addressed before this session is over.

00:32:27 Speaker 10: Thank you.

00:32:28 Speaker 10: However, when you're describing the change in the employment understanding, the mayor then becomes basically the employer of many staff because the ability to hire and fire falls under the direct umbrella of the mayor.

00:32:49 Speaker 10: Currently, we have professionals who are bound by professional standards of practice, and by removing that obligation for the hiring and firing, we actually now put the public interest at risk.

00:33:06 Speaker 10: What is the recourse?

00:33:08 Speaker 10: And have others or yourself raise this concern about removing that guardrail to protect the public interest and safety?

00:33:20 Speaker 10: Yeah, that's Councillor Merton.

00:33:22 Speaker 10: That's again an excellent question.

00:33:25 Speaker 07: I think the legislation was drafted relatively quickly when it first came out.

00:33:31 Speaker 07: You would have thought that there might have been some refinements.

00:33:33 Speaker 07: I think some places are grappling with exactly the question that you've asked.

00:33:38 Speaker 07: For instance, the mayor has the authority to set the organisational structure of the municipality.

00:33:45 Speaker 07: What understanding does the mayor generally have to do something like that?

00:33:51 Speaker 07: I mean, sometimes even your in-house departments will hire consultants to look at these sorts of things.

00:33:58 Speaker 07: It doesn't mean that the mayor has to be alone and make the decisions to say, "Oh, you know what?

00:34:05 Speaker 07: I'm going to cut half the staff in the finance department because we don't need those people."

00:34:10 Speaker 07: I think the mayor may have certain authorities to do something potentially like that,

00:34:16 Speaker 07: but you would hope that the mayor would look at this reasonably and get the proper instructions and do the due diligence that would normally accompany these sorts of decisions.

00:34:34 Speaker 07: I know I was asked that on because unfortunately I have had some experience with some very senior terminations by strong mayors.

00:34:44 Speaker 07: I looked after a number of municipalities in the first couple of tranches, and I was involved with that.

00:34:50 Speaker 07: And I encouraged the mayor very, very strongly to work with the HR department in all of those instances to make sure that everything was done appropriately.

00:35:03 Speaker 07: That the mayor wouldn't just react, "Oh, I have this blanket authority, and I'm just going to exercise it without you knowing, looking at something more,

00:35:13 Speaker 07: or potentially going and hiring someone without having done the proper due diligence, reference checks, and things like that."

00:35:21 Speaker 07: The legislation does not speak to any of that, and I suppose the mayor could come back and say, "No, I'm just going to do what I want to do."

00:35:31 Speaker 07: And by the way, I know we have a compensation structure, but by the way, I'm also in charge of the budget, so I think we should be paying our CAO an X amount,

00:35:40 Speaker 07: and I know it may blow up our grid scale and our pay grades, but I'm going to make this decision.

00:35:48 Speaker 07: The mayor, I think, is authorised to make that decision under the statute, and I think going to your question, Councillor Morton, what's there to protect the public interest?

00:36:00 Speaker 07: Unfortunately, I think it raises lots of questions of liability.

00:36:06 Speaker 02: Not seeing any other questions in the room, so go ahead with your next topic, or as you please.

00:36:13 Speaker 02: Yes, thank you very much, Mr. Mayor.

00:36:15 Speaker 02: I do want to also just round back up.

00:36:17 Speaker 07: One of the council members, I'm sorry, asked about the questions, and yes, your staff were kind enough to provide me with a list of questions.

00:36:25 Speaker 07: I have reviewed them, and I'd be pleased to go through them.

00:36:29 Speaker 07: I don't...

00:36:30 Speaker 07: I'll admit, I think there were a lot of questions, and I don't have answers to all of them, and some of them, my answers will be, this is still to be determined.

00:36:39 Speaker 07: But I'm certainly happy to try to answer.

00:36:42 Speaker 07: I think I said to your staff I can probably venture into at least 25 of the 30 odd questions, you know, pretty substantially.

00:36:54 Speaker 07: So I hope to get to that, and I'll try not to delay you too much in getting to that as I'm speaking about the next authorities here.

00:37:01 Speaker 07: So I've put up on the screen now, Mr. Mayor, the provincial priority powers.

00:37:06 Speaker 07: That's well known to you.

00:37:08 Speaker 07: It's housing.

00:37:09 Speaker 07: You have to build housing by the end of 2031, and anything related to infrastructure, related to housing.

00:37:16 Speaker 07: So, transit, roads, utilities, and servicing.

00:37:19 Speaker 07: Very, very broad.

00:37:21 Speaker 07: There are three types of powers that relate to the provincial priority powers.

00:37:26 Speaker 07: The first one is the mayor can override the procedure by-law in order to take certain actions as they relate to provincial priorities.

00:37:39 Speaker 07: Okay, as you know, every municipality has to have a procedure by-law.

00:37:42 Speaker 07: It sets out the rules of process at a meeting.

00:37:46 Speaker 07: For instance, new business has to be brought forward, and it has to be brought forward under new business or as a notice of motion for the mayor who would like to exercise certain powers.

00:38:00 Speaker 07: The procedure by-law is overridden, okay, and it relates to you'll see here potentially advancing a provincial priority under certain sections, and where there's a potential interference with provincial priorities,

00:38:16 Speaker 07: the mayor is authorised to take certain actions, whether to bring forward a by-law or whether to veto a by-law, okay, and does it matter what the procedure by-law says in those instances.

00:38:32 Speaker 07: So the veto power.

00:38:33 Speaker 07: Let me speak to this.

00:38:35 Speaker 07: The head of council can veto any by-law that a municipality enacts under the Municipal Act, under the Planning Act, and under any prescribed legislation.

00:38:51 Speaker 07: And to date, there's only been one statute prescribed, and that's the Development Charges Act.

00:38:56 Speaker 07: So a by-law under section 2... effectively a development charge by-law.

00:39:01 Speaker 07: The mayor, if the mayor is of the opinion that any of these by-laws or parts of these by-laws will interfere—sorry, I want to be precise—potentially interfere with the delivery of a provincial priority,

00:39:21 Speaker 07: the mayor is authorised to veto that by-law.

00:39:26 Speaker 07: Now, for public accountability, the notice is to be provided to council within two days of council having made a vote.

00:39:39 Speaker 07: So, the notice that the mayor is thinking about vetoing a by-law or part of a by-law has to be given to the other members of council within two days of the vote.

00:39:50 Speaker 07: So, what does this tell you?

00:39:52 Speaker 07: It means that there is some notice to other members of council, so they're aware of it.

00:39:57 Speaker 07: But it also means that a mayor can only veto a recently enacted by-law.

00:40:03 Speaker 07: The mayor can't go back and veto by-laws that are currently existing.

00:40:09 Speaker 07: Okay, so the veto must be in writing thereafter, and there must be written reasons provided by the mayor within 14 days of the meeting of council.

00:40:26 Speaker 07: So people have said to me, "Is this 14 calendar days or is it 14 business days?"

00:40:33 Speaker 07: My view is the legislation does not prescribe a definition of days, and typically you would fall back to the plain and ordinary meaning.

00:40:47 Speaker 07: So the plain and ordinary meaning would be a calendar day, and it would not be a business day.

00:40:54 Speaker 07: However, the legislation act comes into play, and the computation of time under Section 89 of the Legislation Act says the deadline might not expire on a holiday or another day like that.

00:41:11 Speaker 07: It would be extended potentially to the next day.

00:41:15 Speaker 07: Council can override the head of council's veto, but only by a two-thirds vote of council,

00:41:23 Speaker 07: and that has to be done within 21 days of the date or the prescribed date that the clerk provides notice of the mayor's veto.

00:41:36 Speaker 07: So the clerk must provide notice, and so she'll have certain timelines that she will need to be very, very well aware of,

00:41:45 Speaker 07: and probably will come up with some sort of chart which will set these out, so council is able to veto the mayor's veto, but can only do so on a supermajority of a two-thirds vote.

00:41:59 Speaker 07: And if council would like to do so, it's already behind the eight ball because the head of council can vote on that veto.

00:42:08 Speaker 07: So the council, the head of council, isn't excluded from voting.

00:42:13 Speaker 07: The veto power under this section does not apply to certain bylaws; sections 289 and 290 of the Municipal Act talk about budget bylaws, and that's because there's a separate budget power.

00:42:26 Speaker 07: Okay, so that's the veto power.

00:42:29 Speaker 07: The additional power that was granted by the Better Municipal Governance Act, Bill 39, was the power that's often been described as undemocratic.

00:42:42 Speaker 07: This is the power where the mayor can, if the mayor is of the opinion that a bylaw will potentially advance a provincial priority—so any bylaw under the Municipal Act, any bylaw under the Planning Act,

00:42:57 Speaker 07: and a development charge bylaw—the mayor can bring that to council and require council to vote on the bylaw, and with only one-third of council on board, and the mayor,

00:43:18 Speaker 07: you can have more than one-third of council making the decision to enact the bylaw.

00:43:25 Speaker 07: So I'll give you an example here, and maybe it's one I'm not sure if I gave at Grey County, but people will say, well, a provincial priority.

00:43:34 Speaker 07: We get the Planning Act because it deals with planning matters, typically dealing with housing and infrastructure.

00:43:41 Speaker 07: What about a noise bylaw?

00:43:43 Speaker 07: For instance, you might say noise bylaw.

00:43:45 Speaker 07: How does that impact provincial priorities?

00:43:48 Speaker 07: Well, there may be a dire need for development to occur, construction to occur in your municipality, and the mayor could potentially say, "You know what?

00:43:59 Speaker 07: The quiet periods under the noise bylaw, typically from eight at night to seven in the morning, not on holidays, not on weekends, or not on Sundays."

00:44:11 Speaker 07: Weekends or not on Sundays—that's typically in the noise bylaw.

00:44:15 Speaker 07: A mayor could decide I'm going to have twenty-four-seven construction because housing is so important to our municipality that I'd like to override the entire quiet periods in the noise bylaw.

00:44:28 Speaker 07: Potentially, that might be something that a mayor could bring, and with one-third of council support, he could get the bylaw enacted.

00:44:41 Speaker 07: Persons have said to me, "Does that mean one-third works?

00:44:44 Speaker 07: Is it one-third plus the mayor?"

00:44:47 Speaker 07: My answer is, "Yeah, I think that's how it works, or just more than one-third, which is the language in the legislation."

00:44:53 Speaker 07: So, it doesn't include fractional interest.

00:44:58 Speaker 07: Yes.

00:44:58 Speaker 07: So, I know your council is nine persons, but in a council of seven, one-third of council typically would be taken at three members, right?

00:45:11 Speaker 07: So then, if you have the three plus the mayor, you have four.

00:45:15 Speaker 07: So on a council of seven, you have a majority there.

00:45:20 Speaker 07: On a council of eight, same thing applies, and you could have four, which is only fifty percent.

00:45:27 Speaker 07: But the wording in the legislation says more than one-third.

00:45:31 Speaker 07: So when I look at a council of seven, for instance, I would say, well, one-third of council is two point three.

00:45:40 Speaker 07: Now, typically, you would need three to have a third.

00:45:44 Speaker 07: But you take that fraction, add the mayor, and you have three members; you have there in that case a majority, a minority majority of council.

00:46:00 Speaker 07: So, in that case, three members out of seven would be more than one-third.

00:46:06 Speaker 07: One-third would be two point three.

00:46:08 Speaker 07: So two members plus the mayor is that.

00:46:12 Speaker 07: In your case, nine members, you would need three members of council plus the mayor.

00:46:17 Speaker 07: So it always be four, unless there's a potential for someone to declare a pecuniary interest.

00:46:26 Speaker 07: The head of council is entitled to vote on the one-third.

00:46:30 Speaker 07: So that's how I come up with one-third of council plus the mayor is more than one-third.

00:46:35 Speaker 07: That is to advance provincial priorities.

00:46:38 Speaker 07: Okay, Mr. Mayor, I've come to the end of that section.

00:46:41 Speaker 07: I'm going to talk about the budget power next.

00:46:44 Speaker 07: Would anyone like to ask any questions about provincial priorities?

00:46:48 Speaker 07: Councillor Hamlin has a question.

00:46:50 Speaker 03: Just back to the piece about the veto and the Planning Act.

00:47:01 Speaker 03: Like so, if the mayor were to veto a planning application for some reason, the proponent would still have the ability to take the city to the OLT.

00:47:16 Speaker 03: Like there's still the outside legal consequences for these decisions.

00:47:21 Speaker 03: Basically, is my question?

00:47:23 Speaker 03: Yes, through you, Mr. Mayor.

00:47:25 Speaker 03: The answer is yes.

00:47:27 Speaker 07: The mayor's powers don't supersede any other potential requirements to do certain things under the Planning Act, for instance.

00:47:39 Speaker 07: So, if the mayor would like to veto a bylaw that council decided was going to be enacted, a zoning bylaw,

00:47:48 Speaker 07: the normal rights of the applicant to go and file an appeal under the Planning Act would still be there, and there could be an appeal under the OLT under that provision.

00:48:08 Speaker 07: And a follow-up to that from Councillor Farmer.

00:48:11 Speaker 11: Thank you, through the Mayor, just to pick on Councillor Hamlin's example.

00:48:15 Speaker 11: My understanding of the legislation, Mr. Mascaren, if you could confirm or correct me here, is that the Mayor can only ever make development easier,

00:48:23 Speaker 11: and so rather than a proponent taking the city to the Land Tribunal, the mayor would never be in a position to say no because the provincial priority is building,

00:48:33 Speaker 11: and the mayor acting in a way that would stop building would.

00:48:38 Speaker 11: Yep.

00:48:38 Speaker 11: I understand where you're coming from, Councillor Farmer.

00:48:44 Speaker 11: Through you, Mr. Mayor.

00:48:45 Speaker 07: Here's one situation: Council decides that it's going to pass a bylaw to allow commercial development.

00:48:55 Speaker 07: The mayor looks at this and says, "I think that should all be residential."

00:49:00 Speaker 07: Potentially, the mayor could veto that bylaw for the commercial development approval because the mayor may be of the position that those lands would be better used for commercial development.

00:49:12 Speaker 07: So that's one scenario that I thought of that potentially would give the applicant an opportunity to go: I don't want to build residential development;

00:49:21 Speaker 07: I want to go ahead with my commercial development and could still go forward.

00:49:29 Speaker 05: So from its Mayor Boddy, so Mr. Mascaren, right now the provincial policy that is before us is housing.

00:49:38 Speaker 05: But at some point in the future, they add X, they add Y, they add Z. Don't we just have a downloading without?

00:49:46 Speaker 05: And to back up some of those first ones that got strong mayor power got housing goals and money that came with it.

00:49:56 Speaker 05: If they reach those goals, there has been no mention of that to us.

00:50:00 Speaker 05: Not that it would probably be enough, but is this not setting up municipalities to do more and more potentially of the province's duties that local taxpayers cost?

00:50:16 Speaker 07: Quite honestly, Mr. Mayor, I agree with that.

00:50:20 Speaker 07: I again, I didn't go into a lot of op-eds earlier, but I'm not been a fan of this legislation, and I think many people, apart from me, much more brilliant people,

00:50:33 Speaker 07: have made that very statement.

00:50:36 Speaker 07: It seems to be getting the municipalities to do the dirty work for the province.

00:50:42 Speaker 07: I mean, I know your municipality and many others across Ontario grappled with all of those changes to the Planning Act.

00:50:50 Speaker 07: You know the whittling down of the principle of growth pace for growth under development charges, only to be dangled with a carrot that if you meet these provincial housing targets, you may get something back.

00:51:02 Speaker 07: And there certainly are at least three mayors who think that that is such a great idea because they were listed in the news releases about what a great piece of legislation this is.

00:51:16 Speaker 07: But I frankly don't see it, and I understand.

00:51:19 Speaker 07: your comments, and I would say I agree with those.

00:51:23 Speaker 07: Good, thank you.

00:51:24 Speaker 07: One more, Councillor Merton's hands up.

00:51:27 Speaker 12: Through you, Mayor, you mentioned housing targets and the incentive of building houses, but here in Owen Sound,

00:51:35 Speaker 12: our most recent information during the tenure of this provincial government is that we will have approved or ready to be approved over three thousand housing units.

00:51:46 Speaker 12: So to give Owen Sound the power for building housing, when we have already clearly demonstrated we are moving forward and we have development in process over the next four years, seems to be a disconnect.

00:52:04 Speaker 12: If these powers are given to us, at what point do the targets come along with it?

00:52:16 Speaker 07: Mr. Mayor, I don't know if that's a question to me because I just don't know.

00:52:20 Speaker 07: I understand Councillor Merton's comments, but I don't have any insight there.

00:52:27 Speaker 07: Many have asked me, and I don't have any specific insight on this.

00:52:32 Speaker 07: But how did we get on the list?

00:52:35 Speaker 07: People keep asking, and I go: I think the province just went down, looked at every municipality that had six members or more, and decided let's take a flyer here.

00:52:44 Speaker 07: We like this legislation, and let's move it forward.

00:52:48 Speaker 07: I don't think it was more scientific than that.

00:52:51 Speaker 07: You're probably looking at it the same way I am, and going, why would they give powers to that municipality?

00:52:58 Speaker 07: They don't have any kind of development potential at all.

00:53:03 Speaker 07: So that's my best guess as to why it was extended to this one hundred and sixty-nine municipalities on the list.

00:53:10 Speaker 07: I don't see any.

00:53:12 Speaker 07: Good.

00:53:12 Speaker 07: I don't see any more hands going up at this time.

00:53:15 Speaker 07: Okay.

00:53:16 Speaker 07: So thank you, Mr. Mayor.

00:53:17 Speaker 07: Then my next one is the budget power or responsibility.

00:53:21 Speaker 07: Now the budget is no longer council's budget.

00:53:25 Speaker 07: The mayor brings forward the budget.

00:53:28 Speaker 07: It is the head of council that is to prepare the budget for the municipality.

00:53:32 Speaker 07: Must do so by February 1st.

00:53:36 Speaker 07: There is no authority to delegate the budget power from the mayor, so you'll see right after this, I will talk about delegation.

00:53:48 Speaker 07: There are some authorities under the strong mayor powers that can be delegated.

00:53:53 Speaker 07: The budget power is not one.

00:53:55 Speaker 07: However, I am aware that many municipalities have taken this position.

00:54:02 Speaker 07: The mayor has said, "I know I have to bring forward the budget, and I will, but I'm going to do so in accordance with the way that it's traditionally been done in the municipality,

00:54:14 Speaker 07: and I'm going to issue a direction to staff under my authority under section 238.3 that staff bring forward the budget as it's done for the last number of years,

00:54:27 Speaker 07: or with any enhancements or with any changes.

00:54:30 Speaker 07: But you know you can establish a budget committee, and staff can proceed on that basis.

00:54:36 Speaker 07: The budget will be given to the mayor and it can be given ahead of time.

00:54:42 Speaker 07: It doesn't have to wait until February 1st.

00:54:45 Speaker 07: The budget can be given to the mayor.

00:54:47 Speaker 07: The mayor then will present the budget, and council can propose amendments to the budget.

00:55:00 Speaker 07: If council proposes any amendments, the head of council has the right to veto those amendments, and council has the authority to veto the mayor's veto by a two-thirds vote.

00:55:17 Speaker 07: And there are certain timelines and certain things in the regulation as well as in the statute that talk about how this is done.

00:55:30 Speaker 07: I'm not going to dive deeply into this, and I'll be quite honest.

00:55:34 Speaker 07: Out of all of the authorities that were given to the first tranche of municipalities, the questions that I was asked the least on were budgets because I think the clerks, together with the treasurers,

00:55:48 Speaker 07: often worked together, and they didn't seem to need any legal input from me.

00:55:53 Speaker 07: So I didn't want to speak from a place of ignorance, but I really didn't have much to do on this.

00:56:01 Speaker 07: I did want to make one comment.

00:56:02 Speaker 07: I want to make one comment again that it is the mayor's budget; it is not council's anymore.

00:56:08 Speaker 07: And I have had some municipalities ask me a variation of the question that was asked before: Does the mayor need to be an accountant?

00:56:18 Speaker 07: Does the mayor need to know anything about how to read, you know, a spreadsheet or anything like that?

00:56:25 Speaker 07: And the answer is no. The mayor doesn't have to have any of those powers or experiences or knowledge base, or skill set.

00:56:35 Speaker 07: The mayor can, for instance, give direction to staff to bring forward a budget and to have a zero net increase, or only one percent, or two, or whatever a mayor can do.

00:56:46 Speaker 07: That could be the direction of the mayor.

00:56:48 Speaker 07: Council can propose amendments, and as I said, the mayor can veto those, and council can, with a two-thirds vote, veto the mayor's veto.

00:56:57 Speaker 07: So, Mr. Mayor, that's all I really want to say about the budget power.

00:57:01 Speaker 07: So again, unless there are any questions, I'll move on.

00:57:10 Speaker 08: It seems to me that in reality, staff's going to put together a budget.

00:57:14 Speaker 08: They're going to put the mayor's budget at the top of it.

00:57:18 Speaker 08: We're going to come and deliberate.

00:57:20 Speaker 08: We're going to come and get the feedback of council, just like any other year of deliberation, probably twice, maybe three times.

00:57:28 Speaker 08: But it's not coming to council for the final approval, after council has made all their suggestions.

00:57:41 Speaker 08: Somehow, then I guess it's up to the mayor to say that's the budget.

00:57:48 Speaker 08: Is that accurate?

00:57:50 Speaker 08: Yes.

00:57:51 Speaker 07: So, Mr. Mayor, you could put in place something exactly like that.

00:57:55 Speaker 07: I know some municipalities, the mayor says the staff go away.

00:58:00 Speaker 07: I don't want to have a budget committee, and I want you to give it to me.

00:58:04 Speaker 07: I'll present it to council.

00:58:06 Speaker 07: So, sort of springing it on them.

00:58:09 Speaker 07: That's something that the legislation does not really speak to.

00:58:13 Speaker 07: Sorry, when I say speaking, spring it on them.

00:58:17 Speaker 07: There are certain things you do have to provide it ahead of time, and things like this.

00:58:22 Speaker 07: But it's not quite the process that you indicated there.

00:58:24 Speaker 07: But you indicate it there, but you could put in that process, and then it's like you said, instead of calling it council's budget, it's the mayor's budget,

00:58:32 Speaker 07: and then the mayor ultimately has the approval authority, subject to council's right to veto the mayor's veto.

00:58:41 Speaker 02: There is probably nothing that comes up per year that's more 100% involving all nine council members with input than the budget.

00:58:52 Speaker 02: So this is interesting.

00:58:55 Speaker 02: So thank you.

00:58:56 Speaker 02: Yeah.

00:58:56 Speaker 02: Okay.

00:58:57 Speaker 07: So now, Mr. Mayor, I'm going to wrap it up, so to speak, with just some final comments on how some of this may work together.

00:59:05 Speaker 07: I put this under miscellaneous.

00:59:07 Speaker 07: So, one of the first things that I wanted to do, and I think I did mention it, but I said I'd round back.

00:59:12 Speaker 07: Is there are certain powers that the mayor is entitled to delegate.

00:59:18 Speaker 07: The delegation is made under the rules that are specified for normal delegations under section 23.1(2) of the Municipal Act.

00:59:28 Speaker 07: So, the hiring and firing of the Chief Administrative Officer, the mayor can delegate that back to council.

00:59:37 Speaker 07: With respect to the organisational structure, the mayor can delegate either to council or to the CAO to have that power.

00:59:45 Speaker 07: Local boards there are not prescribed, so I won't mention it.

00:59:49 Speaker 07: And for prescribed committees, the mayor can delegate that back to council, so there is some authority for the mayor to delegate back some of these powers.

01:00:01 Speaker 07: You'll see that there are only a few that can be delegated,

01:00:05 Speaker 07: and that's why I said in another when I was speaking about the mayor's budget that there's no power to delegate because statutory interpretation rule 101 would be if it's specified clearly in the legislation if

01:00:20 Speaker 07: a power is specified clearly in the legislation for certain things to be done,

01:00:25 Speaker 07: and it's silent towards other things, it means that the legislative drafters did not intend for those powers to be conveyed other than what's been expressly done.

01:00:36 Speaker 07: So these are your ability to delegate.

01:00:41 Speaker 07: Now, people have said to me, "So what happens if the mayor delegates the powers?

01:00:46 Speaker 07: Can the mayor revoke that delegation?"

01:00:49 Speaker 07: And the answer is yes.

01:00:51 Speaker 07: Again, I refer to that section of the Municipal Act where the delegation rules are specified.

01:00:57 Speaker 07: So the mayor can decide to delegate today, but revoke tomorrow.

01:01:04 Speaker 07: Okay, so that's there.

01:01:06 Speaker 07: People have said, okay, the mayor resets the organisational structure and makes that decision, and clearly, if the mayor doesn't change that, it remains in place.

01:01:18 Speaker 07: the next term of council?

01:01:20 Speaker 07: And my answer is yes, subject to that strong mayor being able to possibly change or revoke that earlier designation.

01:01:32 Speaker 07: So the power, the change, remains in place, subject to the next term changing and things being revised.

01:01:44 Speaker 07: So, for instance, let's say that there's a change in the office of the mayor.

01:01:51 Speaker 07: Well, the new mayor can make different decisions.

01:01:53 Speaker 07: If the old mayor is there, the mayor can just continue on.

01:01:57 Speaker 07: But what happens if the mayor had a certain comfort level with council this term and decided to delegate certain powers to council, powers reorganisational structure, and with the CAO?

01:02:10 Speaker 07: But next council, maybe the mayor is not comfortable with the council there, and decides, oh, I'm going to take them back.

01:02:17 Speaker 07: The mayor is able to do so.

01:02:19 Speaker 07: Okay.

01:02:21 Speaker 07: There's the immunity provision.

01:02:23 Speaker 07: I mentioned this before when we were going to talk about possible challenges.

01:02:28 Speaker 07: It says here, and I'm paraphrasing from what the legislation says.

01:02:32 Speaker 07: I've tried to narrow it down a little bit for you.

01:02:35 Speaker 07: Any decision made or veto power or other power that is exercised legally and in good faith under this part shall not be quashed or open for review in whole or in part because of reason

01:02:53 Speaker 07: unreasonableness or supposed unreasonableness of the decision or the veto or other power.

01:03:00 Speaker 07: So I've combined a number of things.

01:03:02 Speaker 07: It's not materially different from what's now in sections 272 and 273 for any decision.

01:03:10 Speaker 07: For any decisions that are made by council, so bylaw has a different definition under 273 for quashing.

01:03:20 Speaker 07: Bylaw includes an order or a resolution.

01:03:24 Speaker 07: So I think what the immunity provision is here saying: you can't quash a bylaw unless it's illegal or done in bad faith,

01:03:36 Speaker 07: and that's a bylaw that's enacted by the mayor with more than one-third of council, nor can you seek to quash a veto for anything but illegality or bad faith.

01:03:51 Speaker 07: Okay, so I think it's just trying to align what's already in the Municipal Act to the mayor's powers, but it's strangely worded under the provision called immunity,

01:04:04 Speaker 07: which makes it sound like all decisions are immune, and I don't think that's at all what the language actually says, or what the intent was.

01:04:13 Speaker 07: A mayor who's in a designated municipality as a strong mayor municipality can only be elected to office.

01:04:24 Speaker 07: And I know one of the questions that has been asked, and I'll cover it off here.

01:04:28 Speaker 07: It means elected by acclamation.

01:04:31 Speaker 07: If you look at Section 37 of the Municipal Elections Act, it treats acclamation where there is no one else voting as an election.

01:04:42 Speaker 07: So, yes, a mayor who's been acclaimed to office is a mayor, and that mayor is a strong mayor.

01:04:51 Speaker 07: If that mayor should leave office, resign, heaven forbid, pass away, or be removed from office for a breach of the Municipal Conflict of Interest Act,

01:05:01 Speaker 07: or Mr. Simmonds will get the reference section 247 of the Municipal Act, only a by-election will put in a new mayor.

01:05:14 Speaker 07: The mayor cannot be appointed by council.

01:05:17 Speaker 07: So what I read in from that is also many members of council are sometimes appointed as deputy mayor under procedure bylaw.

01:05:28 Speaker 07: That authority to be the deputy mayor or to be elected as the deputy mayor to that office,

01:05:35 Speaker 07: does not carry with it the ability to exercise strong mayor powers when the mayor is not at the meeting or whether the mayor is unable to do so.

01:05:46 Speaker 07: The power can only be exercised by the strong mayor, not a delegatee, i.e., the deputy mayor or the acting mayor or deputy mayor, as the instance may be.

01:06:00 Speaker 07: They cannot exercise the strong mayor powers.

01:06:04 Speaker 07: All of the matters, the decisions, the veto powers, directions—all of them have to be put in writing, and that's specified both under the statute and under the regulation, subject to certain terms,

01:06:19 Speaker 07: most of which your clerk and deputy clerk will have to be very, very cognizant of.

01:06:26 Speaker 07: Finally, there are provisions—new provision in the Municipal Conflict of Interest Act—that speak to the mayor having to not participate in or exercise any powers when the mayor has veto power rights,

01:06:44 Speaker 07: authority to bring forward certain things when the mayor has a pecuniary interest.

01:06:50 Speaker 07: So there are provisions.

01:06:52 Speaker 07: These needed to be done because a number of the provisions of the act only spoke about certain things.

01:06:58 Speaker 07: Only spoke about certain requirements being put in place if the member was at a meeting, and of course now strong mayor powers don't always have to be done when the mayor is at the meeting.

01:07:12 Speaker 07: Okay, so that's why these were put in place.

01:07:15 Speaker 07: So my conclusions are that there are now unilateral executive authorities given to the mayor in a strong mayor municipality, but they're limited unilateral executive powers related to those administrative powers that I mentioned.

01:07:32 Speaker 07: Powers related to provincial priorities, and then the mayor has the responsibility to bring forward the mayor's budget, but can do so by direction to staff, as it's mostly always been done.

01:07:45 Speaker 07: And finally, there are some miscellaneous powers and responsibilities.

01:07:49 Speaker 07: So, Mr. Mayor, that's the end of my presentation proper.

01:07:53 Speaker 07: What I'll do now, if I can see my mouse on the screen, is stop sharing.

01:07:57 Speaker 07: I think it may have stopped sharing now.

01:08:00 Speaker 07: And I'd be no. I'm sorry, Mr. Mayor.

01:08:07 Speaker 07: I can't tell if my screen went off.

01:08:12 Speaker 07: Your screen is still sharing.

01:08:14 Speaker 07: Oh, okay.

01:08:15 Speaker 07: Sorry.

01:08:15 Speaker 07: Every time I try to click on it, there.

01:08:17 Speaker 07: I think I've gotten rid of it.

01:08:19 Speaker 07: Okay.

01:08:19 Speaker 07: Thank you.

01:08:19 Speaker 07: Sorry about that, Mr. Mayor.

01:08:21 Speaker 07: Someone did make reference to those questions.

01:08:25 Speaker 07: I'd be for the ones that I haven't answered because I've tried to answer some of them as I've gone through.

01:08:32 Speaker 07: I'd be pleased to take the questions, and I don't know how you'd like to go through them, or if you wanted to ask anything else as well.

01:08:41 Speaker 02: Council, are there other questions that you want to ask that you haven't heard, Councillor Farmer?

01:08:46 Speaker 04: Thank you, through the mayor, following up on the question of immunity.

01:08:48 Speaker 04: It's unclear to me what the authority is that would determine whether those things were those decisions were made in good faith or appropriately.

01:08:57 Speaker 04: There is also a question in the package about the relationship then between oversight and the integrity commissioner.

01:09:07 Speaker 04: If there is no formal rubric in the legislation for how close to aligned with provincial priorities needs to be, do councils have a recourse to flag something as inappropriate, and what does that look like?

01:09:22 Speaker 04: With the context of that immunity clause.

01:09:25 Speaker 04: Yep, through you, Mr. Mayor, Councillor Farmer.

01:09:28 Speaker 07: I think what happens is you have to go to court.

01:09:32 Speaker 07: And when I say you, it could be a resident bringing an application to quash, for instance, under section 273 of the Municipal Act,

01:09:43 Speaker 07: saying I'd like to quash the mayor's decision because it's illegal or it's been passed in bad faith, which are two things that you can do.

01:09:54 Speaker 07: Or council can make that determination by passing a resolution and saying we'd like to challenge it.

01:10:02 Speaker 07: So you might see council challenging mayor decisions.

01:10:06 Speaker 07: But the bad news is, I think the only way you can do that is to end up going to court on those questions.

01:10:13 Speaker 07: There is no other mechanism of which I'm aware.

01:10:16 Speaker 07: Now, Councillor Farmer, I know that you were at the joint meeting of Grey County.

01:10:21 Speaker 07: So the question was asked, and your integrity commissioner Jeff Abrams from Principals Integrity was at the meeting, and I think his answer and my answer were aligned since that time.

01:10:34 Speaker 07: And I should confess I'm also an integrity commissioner in a number of municipalities.

01:10:40 Speaker 07: So I have been thinking about this.

01:10:42 Speaker 07: I have run the question that you just asked by a number of other integrity commissioners,

01:10:48 Speaker 07: and I think we're pretty much all aligned that questions on whether a mayor has properly exercised his or her authority on strong mayor powers are legal questions.

01:11:02 Speaker 07: They're not really ethical questions that trigger the applications of the code of conduct, nor the integrity commissioner's authority to investigate or inquire.

01:11:18 Speaker 07: I think most of the questions that may be coming forward from potentially residents and maybe other members of council are I don't think that the mayor exercised his authority properly.

01:11:33 Speaker 07: Well, my question is, did he exercise them legally?

01:11:36 Speaker 07: And as an integrity commissioner, I would say not within my jurisdiction.

01:11:41 Speaker 07: These are questions of legal consequence, not of an ethical standing.

01:11:48 Speaker 07: So I believe Mr. Abrams agreed with me when I answered roughly that way at Grey County, and that's my view.

01:11:58 Speaker 07: I'm sure that there are possible ways of trying to get it within the confines of an integrity commissioner complaint, but I don't think that's predominantly how the question will really come forward.

01:12:14 Speaker 07: I think it's more of a question of legal authority, capacity, and jurisdiction rather than whether it's ethical or not.

01:12:23 Speaker 07: Councillor Kepk.

01:12:25 Speaker 07: Thank you, Your Worship.

01:12:26 Speaker 09: I realize that the legislation is there and it's in place, and it always takes precedence.

01:12:33 Speaker 09: But can a municipality, for the purposes of being open and transparent to the public, establish in their regulation?

01:12:40 Speaker 09: Establish in their regulations within their procedural bylaw that at the beginning of each new term of council, the mayor would identify their intentions with respect to the use of strong mayor powers.

01:12:53 Speaker 07: Councillor Kempthorne, through you, Mr. Mayor, yes, you could do that, and then a mayor could say, "I'm not going to follow that.

01:13:01 Speaker 07: I have the authority to do it, and I don't have to show what my intention is."

01:13:06 Speaker 07: There are certain requirements if I'm going to exercise my authority.

01:13:09 Speaker 07: I have to set out reasons, and that's what I'm going to do.

01:13:14 Speaker 07: Doesn't the legislation really speak to it?

01:13:17 Speaker 07: So while council can do that, and a mayor could say, "I think that's absolutely valid," and I'm going to go forward and agree with council to do that for this term of council.

01:13:31 Speaker 07: That's fine, but I think it's at the mayor's sufferance to do something like that.

01:13:38 Speaker 07: The election will probably sort that out.

01:13:41 Speaker 07: Sunit, nothing.

01:13:43 Speaker 07: Scott, might as well keep moving down the table.

01:13:46 Speaker 07: Anyone else?

01:13:47 Speaker 07: Go ahead.

01:13:48 Speaker 02: It's Melanie Middlebrooke that's councillor speaking.

01:13:52 Speaker 02: Thank you, through you, chair.

01:13:54 Speaker 13: I think my only question is to the question we submitted number nine: Is there the opportunity to opt out of the strong mayor powers, and if not,

01:14:06 Speaker 13: how do we put in place like concrete limits?

01:14:12 Speaker 13: Like I just don't understand this, and I think it's just bad.

01:14:17 Speaker 13: Through you, Mr. Mayor.

01:14:18 Speaker 07: Yes, there was an initial opportunity to possibly opt out, as you know.

01:14:26 Speaker 07: Unlike any of the other strong mayor designations, this one was put on the ERO and giving a commenting period that hadn't happened before, even in the third tranche where mayors had to sign a commitment,

01:14:44 Speaker 07: that was the condition.

01:14:45 Speaker 07: But council didn't have a say.

01:14:47 Speaker 07: In fact, the minister actually gave strong mayor powers to the mayor ahead of giving strong mayor powers by allowing the mayor to exercise the commitment of the municipality to the construction housing targets.

01:15:01 Speaker 07: In this case, on April 9th, when this was released, it said that it was on the ERO, and any comments could be made up to April 16th.

01:15:11 Speaker 07: And I urged any councils that reached out to me to, if they wanted to not have the powers, they should have tried to write to the minister or comment before April 16th.

01:15:25 Speaker 07: I still think it's a possibility that you could write, but I think the minister has probably taken steps to set out the list of the municipalities that he believes should be designated under the regulation,

01:15:40 Speaker 07: and probably is ready to gazette and file and do all of that because May 1st is coming up on Thursday.

01:15:49 Speaker 07: So I suppose if Council at the end of this meeting was going to pass a resolution, Councillor Middlebrooke to say this is atrociously bad legislation.

01:15:59 Speaker 07: We don't agree with it.

01:16:00 Speaker 07: We don't want it for the City of Owen Sound, and the Mayor were to agree with that, you'd have a unanimous resolution or bylaw from Council.

01:16:11 Speaker 07: I think the Minister might consider it, but I also think it might be just a little late, you know, with respect to the timeframes that the Ministry itself has set out.

01:16:21 Speaker 07: So after that, I don't know that there's anything that you can opt out of, and anything that the municipality puts in place by saying, "We're not going to do this."

01:16:33 Speaker 07: I don't think would have any real force of law because it would be subservient and be, you know, down in the pecking order of primacy to what takes paramountcy.

01:16:46 Speaker 07: And Section 14 of the Municipal Act says any bylaw that conflicts with or frustrates the purpose of superior legislation is without effect to the extent that it conflicts or frustrates the purpose.

01:17:02 Speaker 07: Good, good, Councillor Farmer.

01:17:05 Speaker 07: Oh, I'm going to go to Councillor Dodd first.

01:17:10 Speaker 07: Thank you, Worship, and I just have one quick question.

01:17:13 Speaker 07: I'm assuming I already know the answer to this.

01:17:18 Speaker 14: We all understand that there's going to be powers that could be in play where a Mayor could utilise this for the benefit of the municipality.

01:17:26 Speaker 14: What happens when we're in a lame duck period, or we're running into the last month of an election, or election's been announced and the next meeting of the new Council hasn't been in play?

01:17:37 Speaker 14: What safeguards, or are there safeguards in play, to protect the municipality from an outgoing Mayor from doing disruption, just being disruptive to the Corporation?

01:17:52 Speaker 14: Yeah, thank you, Councillor Dodson.

01:17:54 Speaker 07: Excellent question, and I don't think the Province thought that through.

01:17:57 Speaker 07: Because if you look at the lame duck provisions, doesn't it just talk about lame duck of Council, and I'm not sure it touches upon the strong Mayor powers at all.

01:18:07 Speaker 07: And it doesn't say it could easily have, maybe it can, still be easily modified to cover off a situation where the Mayor decides not to run again,

01:18:17 Speaker 07: and then it's a lame duck head of Council that can't make decisions under strong Mayor powers.

01:18:23 Speaker 07: But right now, there's nothing to protect you, and I think that's probably what you were going to.

01:18:28 Speaker 07: Well, what you probably thought the answer was going to be.

01:18:33 Speaker 07: Thank you, I appreciate it.

01:18:35 Speaker 15: Hey, Councillor Farmer, Mister Duncan here.

01:18:42 Speaker 08: So I was going to go to the report, and then thinking about that point.

01:18:45 Speaker 08: Any other questions for Mister Miss Karen?

01:18:50 Speaker 08: I am seeing none.

01:18:51 Speaker 08: Seeing none from Travis.

01:18:53 Speaker 08: Thank you very much for the information.

01:18:56 Speaker 08: I say with frustration that that April 16th date, and we've run into this in planning that you don't have enough time to become informed and respond appropriately.

01:19:10 Speaker 08: And from my point of view, I thought it was odd that there were Mayors running out saying our Council's against this before they consulted with their Council,

01:19:21 Speaker 08: which you have a Mayor making a decision about the ability to make a decision without Council making the decision about.

01:19:27 Speaker 08: I'm going in circles a little bit, but you know what I mean.

01:19:30 Speaker 08: There's an inbuilt conflict to a Mayor coming out without hearing from their Council.

01:19:37 Speaker 08: So, and the 16th was impossible to hit, I think, given that it came on the 9th, and our agenda was probably already out.

01:19:48 Speaker 08: So, once again, thank you for today.

01:19:51 Speaker 08: Thanks for helping out with Grey County a week ago and providing information, and I think we're all better for it.

01:19:57 Speaker 08: Thank you.

01:19:57 Speaker 07: Yeah, Mr. Mayor, just I'm sorry, and I don't know you have other things to get to, but we did have that list of questions, and while I've covered some of them,

01:20:07 Speaker 07: I certainly haven't gone through the questions.

01:20:10 Speaker 07: I, if you'd like, I mean, some of them there are covered, but if you'd like, I could try to give you a quick response on a number of those questions.

01:20:21 Speaker 07: I can just follow the list, and if that's okay, I'm also happy to stand down.

01:20:26 Speaker 07: I'm in your hands.

01:20:27 Speaker 07: No, that makes sense.

01:20:28 Speaker 08: If you want to do a quick run through and see which ones haven't covered or duplicated, and because there was some pretty good questions in there, so please go ahead.

01:20:36 Speaker 07: There was, and so what I did, Mr. Mayor, is I took the questions that staff had put together, and I thank them very much for giving them to me.

01:20:44 Speaker 07: And what I did is I just scratched a few notes under each one, so I can if I can read my chicken scratch on the screen, I might be able to answer some of these.

01:20:55 Speaker 07: So the first question I answered was does the term elected include elected by acclamation, and I said yes.

01:21:03 Speaker 07: The next question was does the municipality's procedure bylaw in any way limit the use of these powers, or do they supersede the city's policies and procedures?

01:21:14 Speaker 07: I think very strongly.

01:21:16 Speaker 07: I've said to you several times there are several provisions in the strong Mayor powers which provide that despite any procedure bylaw.

01:21:25 Speaker 07: So any limitations in a procedure bylaw that would limit or restrict the application of the strong Mayor powers would either conflict with or frustrate the purpose of the strong Mayor powers, and therefore,

01:21:38 Speaker 07: at law under Section 14 of the statute, would be held to be of no force and effect.

01:21:45 Speaker 07: I've talked about one Mayor's delegation of the new powers to Councillor staff.

01:21:50 Speaker 07: Does it go beyond the term of Council?

01:21:53 Speaker 07: The answer is yes, it does.

01:21:56 Speaker 07: However,

01:21:56 Speaker 07: they can be revoked at any time and can be revoked by the new head of Council next term or the existing head of Council should they run again and fall and be elected to office.

01:22:10 Speaker 07: The next question was: Can the City institute any bylaws or procedures to ensure that contracts resulting from decisions made with strong Mayor powers will be available for Council's information?

01:22:24 Speaker 07: And there's a reference to Caledonia.

01:22:26 Speaker 07: I think that was to Caledon.

01:22:28 Speaker 07: And the answer is yes.

01:22:30 Speaker 07: Council can enact a bylaw resolution or adopt a policy that requires that supporting or ancillary documents that are authorised by virtue of strong Mayor's powers, i.e., contracts, agreements, any other kinds of instruments,

01:22:48 Speaker 07: are to be made available to Council and to the administration, subject to any privacy considerations under legislation like PIPA, the Public Health Information Protection Act, the Personal Health Information Protection Act, and MFIPPA.

01:23:05 Speaker 07: Solicitor-client.

01:23:07 Speaker 07: So, listener, client, privileged communications, unfortunately, might not be included.

01:23:15 Speaker 07: So, for instance, the Mayor obtains a legal opinion on the use of a strong Mayor power.

01:23:22 Speaker 07: Would that be required to be disclosed?

01:23:26 Speaker 07: I say potentially not.

01:23:28 Speaker 07: The Mayor has the authority to exercise the powers.

01:23:33 Speaker 07: The Mayor might need a legal opinion.

01:23:35 Speaker 07: Does that legal opinion have to be disclosed?

01:23:39 Speaker 07: And the answer is, I don't think so.

01:23:43 Speaker 07: To which extent, if there is no concrete, I think this has been asked already, and I'm sorry, I forgot the member that asked, but I think I've answered the question.

01:23:54 Speaker 07: The interpretation and application of a strong Mayor's powers would likely, in most instances, be outside of the jurisdiction of a Code of Conduct to regulate or the Integrity Commissioner to investigate or inquire.

01:24:09 Speaker 07: As I've said before, I think the question is really: Does the Mayor have the authority at law to exercise the power?

01:24:16 Speaker 07: Not whether the Mayor is exercising it ethically or appropriately.

01:24:22 Speaker 07: Someone did ask: What is the Government referring to when their press release claims, and a quote:

01:24:28 Speaker 07: "These enhanced powers come with increased accountability for heads of Council and maintain essential checks and balances through the oversight of Councillors."

01:24:39 Speaker 07: I would say that the press release is quite blustery at this point, and in my view, appears to be quite overstating the matter.

01:24:49 Speaker 07: Here, there are new provisions, as I've indicated to you, under the Municipal Conflict of Interest Act, under section 5.3, that pertain to a Mayor's powers,

01:25:04 Speaker 07: but in some instances there are some provisions where the members may be given notice of the Mayor's powers and may override a Mayor's veto of the bylaw or the Mayor's budget.

01:25:17 Speaker 07: Those are the oversights.

01:25:19 Speaker 07: So the press release, I think, is quite overstating it.

01:25:23 Speaker 07: I think someone already asked about lame duck impacting strong Mayors, and my answer was the lame duck provisions in section 275 of the Municipal Act apply to a lame duck Council,

01:25:36 Speaker 07: not a lame duck Mayor.

01:25:39 Speaker 07: And you'll see that the restricted acts under subsection 3 of that provision expressly apply to the Council of a local municipality.

01:25:51 Speaker 07: It doesn't expressly apply to a strong mayor.

01:25:55 Speaker 07: I believe that an argument could be made that it's supposed to apply with necessary modifications, but that's actually not what it says.

01:26:05 Speaker 07: So, for instance, the ability during the lame duck period for an employee not to be fired or, I guess, appointed, I think is overridden by the strong mayor powers.

01:26:18 Speaker 07: There was a question about: Do there need to be changes to the confirmatory bylaw or process in light of the mayor's veto power?

01:26:28 Speaker 07: I think many municipalities have taken a precautionous approach, a very cautious approach,

01:26:37 Speaker 07: and have required that the mayor sign a mayor's decision at the end of the council meetings to say that the mayor will not veto any bylaws passed at the council meeting or any portions of

01:26:52 Speaker 07: those bylaws,

01:26:53 Speaker 07: because then that veto power could be exercised up to 14 days later, which would leave essentially bylaws in limbo.

01:27:03 Speaker 07: So many municipalities have done this, and you'll see at the end that the mayor does issue a mayoral decision, which says, "I will not veto the bylaws."

01:27:14 Speaker 07: Of course, that's only as far as the mayor wants to adhere to what he said, and perhaps the mayor will change his mind, and that's possible.

01:27:24 Speaker 07: Even though I think to be honest, quite unlikely that the mayor would take the step to say, "I'm going to issue this decision to not veto any bylaws," but then override that.

01:27:37 Speaker 07: But it is possible.

01:27:38 Speaker 07: There was a question about opting out, and I've said the answer basically is really no. Do I anticipate any changes to employment contracts?

01:27:47 Speaker 07: Yes, particularly at senior administrative levels, where someone is the head of a division, and now can be terminated by the mayor, even if they've been doing their job.

01:28:00 Speaker 07: And quite honestly, in some cases, if they have been doing their job and doesn't incur the you know the favour of the mayor,

01:28:13 Speaker 07: I think you may see employment contracts coming forward where clearly the CAO and potentially other division heads will look to strengthen their employment contracts to provide them with, well, for lack of a better word,

01:28:30 Speaker 07: some sort of golden parachute if they are terminated without cause by the mayor.

01:28:37 Speaker 07: I don't.

01:28:37 Speaker 07: You can't opt out or can't contract out of the strong mayor powers.

01:28:42 Speaker 07: So you can't have a clause in an employment contract says, notwithstanding that the mayor has the strong mayor powers, the mayor can't get rid of me because I have this contract.

01:28:53 Speaker 07: That you can't do.

01:28:54 Speaker 07: But you could have enhanced severance damages and notice provisions in the contract.

01:29:02 Speaker 07: I was asked the question of whether the mayor can overrule a decision of the minister, Ministry of Transportation, respecting light at an intersection.

01:29:10 Speaker 07: I'll extend this.

01:29:13 Speaker 07: Any decision of the provincial government.

01:29:15 Speaker 07: The answer is no. The mayor can only take the actions that he has, not actions that override another level of government.

01:29:24 Speaker 07: I don't think the mayor can do that.

01:29:26 Speaker 07: Even if the mayor feels that there is a potential interference with provincial priorities, I don't think the reach goes beyond the mayor's own reach under the statute.

01:29:38 Speaker 07: It wouldn't go to the federal or provincial governments or any of their agencies.

01:29:44 Speaker 07: Can the mayor approve an amendment to the?

01:29:46 Speaker 07: Prove an amendment to the official plan or zoning bylaw without public meetings, and the answer is no. A mayor can advance bylaws to take those actions,

01:29:56 Speaker 07: but the process under the Planning Act must still be satisfied.

01:30:01 Speaker 07: Can the mayor override the Planning Act?

01:30:03 Speaker 07: The answer is no. Again, that's that's superior legislation, and Section 14 of the Municipal Act would say no, you can't do that.

01:30:14 Speaker 07: The mayor certainly has authority to try to advance provincial priorities and not interfere with provincial priorities, but that only relates to what council itself could do under the Planning Act.

01:30:27 Speaker 07: So, if a mayor wants to advance a zoning bylaw, the mayor can do so, but still has to go through the public process.

01:30:36 Speaker 07: And as we discussed earlier, still provides an opportunity for any third party appeal rights that still exist to be exercised by someone.

01:30:48 Speaker 07: Someone asks, "What is the intent behind the timing of the strong mayor powers?"

01:30:55 Speaker 07: I don't know.

01:30:56 Speaker 07: I'm only speculating, so I will leave that question aside.

01:31:01 Speaker 07: I don't think I can answer the question.

01:31:04 Speaker 07: If there's something that's coming up that the province was signaling, I don't know.

01:31:10 Speaker 07: If a determination has been done and enacted on May 1st by the province by the minister.

01:31:17 Speaker 07: What is the best pathway forward to ensure that relationships and performance can still result in moving council business of the municipality forward without staff looking over their shoulder and fearing job security?

01:31:29 Speaker 07: Unfortunately, my answer to this is I don't know what you can do.

01:31:34 Speaker 07: You can try to have you know reasonable collegial, civil, professional discussions between all members of council, the mayor, and with staff.

01:31:49 Speaker 07: But I still think that there may be some staff members that still may fear if I don't do what the mayor wants, I may not have a job.

01:31:59 Speaker 07: And I think that's tough one because again, the mayor has those authorities, and staff may exercise their best efforts in light of their responsibilities.

01:32:09 Speaker 07: Certainly senior staff members, as fiduciaries, to look out for the best interest of everybody in the municipality.

01:32:16 Speaker 07: I think I think staff will want to do that, but yet by doing that, might say that might be putting my job in a precarious position, and I don't know what to say about that.

01:32:27 Speaker 07: The answer I've given right now is yes, that is the position that you've been put in, which is really unfair of the legislation.

01:32:35 Speaker 07: I think someone already asked this question about any guardrail.

01:32:37 Speaker 07: This question about any guardrails need to be established about abuse of authority or leveraging the influence of the position.

01:32:45 Speaker 07: I would say the power of moral suasion is still there, and I think councils can and some have called out actions of a mayor, even though they may be legal.

01:32:58 Speaker 07: The council can still call out actions of the mayor by saying, "Mayor, you've been here.

01:33:04 Speaker 07: You've been here this whole term, even long in this term.

01:33:07 Speaker 07: You know this." is a long-range view, vision of the municipality, and you're not adhering to it.

01:33:14 Speaker 07: So that's one way.

01:33:15 Speaker 07: Of course, some municipalities, some councils may decide to combat the mayor's authority and use of their powers by passing a resolution, getting legal counsel, and possibly challenging a mayor's authority,

01:33:31 Speaker 07: the legality or good faith in the mayor bringing forward a municipal sorry, a mayor's decision to do something.

01:33:39 Speaker 07: Someone asked, "Is there a need to change the size of council so this does not apply to your council?"

01:33:46 Speaker 07: My answer, my note says, "Too late.

01:33:49 Speaker 07: The powers will be granted by the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing on May 1st.

01:33:54 Speaker 07: I don't know that the minister would necessarily roll them back for any municipalities that have been granted the powers on May 1st because on May 1st, because as of that date, they were over six.

01:34:07 Speaker 07: They had six or more members of council.

01:34:10 Speaker 07: I believe those municipalities will remain with strong mayor powers, and I don't think because they reduce the size of their council would give retroactive effect to say, "Oh well,

01:34:22 Speaker 07: then we should never have been granted them in the first place," and now they're being undone.

01:34:27 Speaker 07: I think there's provisions under the planning, sorry, under the legislation act that talk about subsequent changes that won't have effect, and I think they that won't have an effect.

01:34:40 Speaker 07: Question eighteen said, "Do we need two county councillors now at Grey County since the power rests with the mayor?

01:34:49 Speaker 07: Do we need the deputy mayor to attend?"

01:34:52 Speaker 07: Well, as I said, this something like this would require a change to the composition of council.

01:34:57 Speaker 07: While the city may make a decision and ask for the mayor to attend at open meetings of county council.

01:35:06 Speaker 07: The deputy mayor would effectively just be an observer and would not be recognized by having any kind of standing to vote or participate at county council,

01:35:18 Speaker 07: and would not likely be allowed to attend closed meetings of county council.

01:35:25 Speaker 07: So I don't think that you can put anything in place to safeguard that.

01:35:30 Speaker 07: I was asked about the role of the integrity commissioner.

01:35:33 Speaker 07: I've already answered that.

01:35:35 Speaker 07: I really don't think the integrity commissioner has any authority to say, you know, the mayor should not have done that.

01:35:43 Speaker 07: I think the question is, does the mayor have the authority?

01:35:46 Speaker 07: If the mayor has the authority, I don't think the integrity commissioner can step in and go.

01:35:50 Speaker 07: I don't think the mayor should have done that.

01:35:53 Speaker 07: That's not a question that the integrity commissioner really has authority.

01:35:57 Speaker 07: The next question is a very good one.

01:35:59 Speaker 07: Do we need a standardized code of conduct across all municipalities provided with strong mayor powers?

01:36:05 Speaker 07: Well, yes.

01:36:07 Speaker 07: You could.

01:36:08 Speaker 07: I have been asked on behalf of a couple of municipalities where I am either legal counsel or where I am integrity commissioner.

01:36:18 Speaker 07: Does it need any changes to the code of conduct?

01:36:21 Speaker 07: And my answer was primarily, you're not making a lot of changes to the general provisions.

01:36:28 Speaker 07: They will remain pretty much the same.

01:36:30 Speaker 07: However, council staff relations policies and codes of conduct, to the extent that they say that a mayor cannot, like any other member of council, give directions to staff, could use a change.

01:36:45 Speaker 07: Now, I think most integrity commissioners would be very cognizant of what strong mayor's legislation says, and I think they would read down that section to say, of course,

01:36:57 Speaker 07: the mayor can exercise certain powers related to Part Six Point One, and so therefore I won't read those as being so strict.

01:37:07 Speaker 07: But certainly changes can be made.

01:37:10 Speaker 07: Whether the province decides that a standardized code province-wide, which is what I think was floated out there with Bill 241, which died on the order paper, I suppose there could be enhanced provisions,

01:37:26 Speaker 07: but like I said before, I don't know that the question is really an ethical question.

01:37:31 Speaker 07: I think it's really a legal question.

01:37:37 Speaker 07: What policy changes are required, including the human resource function and performance evaluation tools relating to city staff and CAOs?

01:37:48 Speaker 07: I think my answer here is the municipality needs to understand that a mayor can hire and can fire the CAO and division heads, so that's imperative for the HR department to know that.

01:38:02 Speaker 07: So I don't know that anything else really needs to change, and I think mayors, I hope anyway,

01:38:11 Speaker 07: that mayors will look at existing hiring policies and certain things that are in accordance with best practices for hiring, firing, and so on,

01:38:26 Speaker 07: will be adhered to to the extent that the mayor is still making the ultimate decision, but will try to follow the proper steps in which to do so.

01:38:36 Speaker 07: Reference checks, people who are well qualified and experienced, and have the proper education, and then compensation that falls in line with other compensation grades and levels that the municipality has already established.

01:38:52 Speaker 07: Question 21: What policy changes are required?

01:38:56 Speaker 07: Question 22 says: Does strong mayor powers allow the mayor to appoint not only specific councillors to specific committees, but also members of the public to sit on those committees?

01:39:06 Speaker 07: Well, my answer is that right now there's only committees comprised of all members of council on which the mayor has the authority to take certain steps.

01:39:16 Speaker 07: So it wouldn't relate to other persons, okay?

01:39:20 Speaker 07: Persons from the public, not council members.

01:39:24 Speaker 07: Question 23 talks about the Healthy Democracy Project under AMO, and I know it exists, but I don't know if any comments or statements have been made.

01:39:37 Speaker 07: I think I did, no, I probably didn't at County Council, like Grey County.

01:39:42 Speaker 07: I didn't put up a very weak statement that AMO had put forward when strong mayor powers were first announced.

01:39:54 Speaker 07: I was quite surprised by the lackadaisical statement that AMO put forward.

01:40:01 Speaker 07: I think they were trying to be very careful and not irk the provincial government there.

01:40:13 Speaker 07: Question 24: Can a charter, or letter of understanding,

01:40:17 Speaker 07: or agreement in principle document be used to clearly define what the incumbent and future mayors consider the use of power in relation to the unique circumstances and framework of the municipality?

01:40:29 Speaker 07: And I say this is terrific, but such a document would only be as good as the current or future mayor may decide and want to adhere to it.

01:40:40 Speaker 07: So you could have that, and it could be again one of these moral suasion documents where everyone buys into it.

01:40:48 Speaker 07: The current mayor, council staff, and it has really terrific, great statements in there.

01:40:56 Speaker 07: But it's only as good as you have.

01:40:58 Speaker 07: Just think about the Constitution in the United States.

01:41:02 Speaker 07: It's only as good as the president who is running it, who is the head of state and is running it.

01:41:09 Speaker 07: And you'll see what the problems are in the United States on them.

01:41:14 Speaker 07: The next series of questions, 25 to 28, I really did not get into these questions.

01:41:25 Speaker 07: I've partially already, I think, answered them.

01:41:28 Speaker 07: So with respect, Mr. Mayor, members of council and staff who've put these together, I didn't answer questions, and I'm not purporting to answer them now directly.

01:41:38 Speaker 07: I think part of the answer, the answers or my responses to some of these questions, I've already put in Section 28.

01:41:46 Speaker 07: Question 28 was actually very interesting: What data should be used to validate or verify the provincial mandate to increase housing using strong mayor powers is supported by data?

01:41:58 Speaker 07: That's a great question and something that you can possibly put in place to maybe show the minister for future reference that this hasn't really led to any kind of material increase in housing starts in

01:42:13 Speaker 07: our municipality because we had been thinking ahead and we have already put in place certain things for our municipality.

01:42:21 Speaker 07: But I don't really know exactly how to answer the question beyond there.

01:42:26 Speaker 07: Question 29: An absolutely terrific question.

01:42:31 Speaker 07: How can municipal funding be made whole?

01:42:36 Speaker 07: Should changes occur that reduce development fees and charges collected by municipalities, the answer is unfortunately, I think the existing tax base needs to absorb any funding shortfall.

01:42:50 Speaker 07: So I'll give you an example.

01:42:52 Speaker 07: For instance, a mayor can decide to veto a development charge bylaw or a provision of a development charge bylaw, for example, that sets a quantum for residential development charges.

01:43:07 Speaker 07: I think it's very clear in the legislation a mayor could possibly do that.

01:43:11 Speaker 07: So the mayor can decide potentially to reduce redevelopment charges for residential development in a DC bylaw.

01:43:24 Speaker 07: The Development Charges Act itself says in subsection 56 that any shortfall that's created by providing an exemption or a reduction of development charges, and it doesn't say how, but it says if you're doing that,

01:43:42 Speaker 07: you can't provide for a lower charge in one instance for it to be picked up by other development charges.

01:43:52 Speaker 07: I think that rule remains in place.

01:43:56 Speaker 07: So a mayor who decides to reduce development charges can't, under the Development Charges Act, expect the remainder of the development charges in the municipality to increase in order to offset the shortfall.

01:44:10 Speaker 07: So that principle that I've said there would probably extend more broadly to other types of fees, charges, or uses.

01:44:20 Speaker 07: Even though I think here we're really talking about development charges, so you can't recover them.

01:44:26 Speaker 07: A mayor who does that will have to understand that doing that may create a bigger imposition on the existing tax base.

01:44:35 Speaker 02: And finally, so with that, John, sorry to interrupt, but we've got a time crunch because we've got to be eating and back in a few minutes into our council.

01:44:45 Speaker 02: Oh, I'm sorry.

01:44:46 Speaker 02: If I, sorry to cut you off there.

01:44:48 Speaker 02: If there's anyone that asked that final question and wants the answer, please, I guess, send an email to Tim and he'll follow through with Mr. Mascarenas, and we can go on.

01:45:00 Speaker 02: You can go on from there.

01:45:02 Speaker 02: So thank you very much for giving us the information and answering those questions.

01:45:08 Speaker 02: Yeah, thank you very much, Mr. Mayor, for this opportunity.

01:45:11 Speaker 02: I'm sorry I went longer.

01:45:12 Speaker 07: I wasn't looking at the time, and I apologize.

01:45:15 Speaker 07: Thank you.

01:45:15 Speaker 07: That's good.

01:45:16 Speaker 07: We appreciate it.

01:45:16 Speaker 07: Thank you.

01:45:19 Speaker 02: So at number 6A, there's a report that I think the recommendation is to receive for information, Councillor Farmer.

01:45:26 Speaker 04: I would move the recommendation to receive information as written.

01:45:30 Speaker 04: I'll also have a follow-up motion for action.

01:45:34 Speaker 04: Okay.

01:45:34 Speaker 02: So all in favour of that motion, that is carried.

01:45:37 Speaker 02: I'll go back to you, and Councillor Dodd has voted in favour.

01:45:42 Speaker 02: Thank you.

01:45:43 Speaker 16: And this may recognizing Councillor Hamley's previous declaration, I am going to move that we respond to the letter.

01:45:51 Speaker 16: So I've sent the draft wording to the clerks.

01:45:56 Speaker 16: Although I am adding one more recipient for the CC: whereas the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, the Honourable Rob Flack, advised the Mayor by letter dated April 9, 2025,

01:46:06 Speaker 16: that the provincial government intends to expand strong mayor powers to the City of Owen Sound, and whereas the Council of the City of Owen Sound has received enough information to make an informed decision,

01:46:16 Speaker 16: I hereby move that a reply be sent from the City of Owen Sound to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing,

01:46:21 Speaker 16: requesting that the ministry reverse the decision and immediately remove the City of Owen Sound from the list of municipalities designated under strong mayor's legislation.

01:46:30 Speaker 16: And further, the letter is copied to the Premier of Ontario, MP Paul Fickers, and I am going to add AMO to that list based on that previous comment.

01:46:42 Speaker 16: We've talked a lot about all the reasons this is bad.

01:46:44 Speaker 16: I think it's bad.

01:46:45 Speaker 16: I think we need to put that on the record.

01:46:46 Speaker 16: I would also request a recorded vote, just to make that really clear.

01:46:51 Speaker 16: I'm also open to a friendly amendment as well, requesting a response from the minister or from the ministry if folks thought that would be helpful.

01:46:59 Speaker 16: But otherwise, the motion is as it stands.

01:47:06 Speaker 03: Yeah, I am going to have to declare pecuniary interest, and just because I work for the Government of Ontario, and I will step out.

01:47:14 Speaker 03: Thank you.

01:47:17 Speaker 03: You could ask for a response.

01:47:19 Speaker 02: We tend to get a response every time on anything, anyway, but.

01:47:24 Speaker 02: It's up to you.

01:47:26 Speaker 04: I'll leave it as it stands, and I'd also accept some feedback around whether we send it just to the Ministry or whether we specify sending it back to the Ministry.

01:47:37 Speaker 04: Go ahead, through you, Mayor.

01:47:40 Speaker 10: Going back to the request for an amendment to ask for a response, I believe it's important that we get a response because, based on that response, that is going to trigger an action plan.

01:47:53 Speaker 10: As a council, we have an obligation and duty to follow through with some of the training sessions.

01:47:59 Speaker 10: That we can do all that we can to make the strong mayor power effective within our organisation.

01:48:08 Speaker 10: I think we've had a lot of information, and I want us to move forward.

01:48:12 Speaker 10: This is not the end.

01:48:15 Speaker 10: This could be just the beginning of the work that we need to do as a council, as our duty and obligation to the public and to other councils in the future.

01:48:25 Speaker 17: Mr. Simmonds, thank you, Mayor, through you to council.

01:48:28 Speaker 17: Just as a point of clarification, to move forward on this motion, not to dissuade anybody's vote or to impact it, but come May 1st, we will be a strong mayor municipality if the legislation passes.

01:48:43 Speaker 17: So no matter what, administratively, we have to move forward in deciding what those new forms, functions, procedural, looking at a procedural bylaw, etc., with a response or without a response.

01:48:56 Speaker 17: Okay, so do we need to discuss the motion further?

01:48:58 Speaker 17: Can I call the question?

01:48:59 Speaker 17: Oh, it's going to be a recorded vote.

01:49:01 Speaker 17: I'll pass it over to Ms. Bloomfield.

01:49:05 Speaker 17: Sorry, John.

01:49:06 Speaker 17: Did you want to add that?

01:49:09 Speaker 17: Just in.

01:49:12 Speaker 17: I will honour.

01:49:14 Speaker 04: I think the request for the friendly amendment to add that we further request a formal response to this letter.

01:49:33 Speaker 04: Councillor Dodd.

01:49:35 Speaker 04: In favour.

01:49:38 Speaker 04: Councillor Farmer.

01:49:39 Speaker 04: In favour.

01:49:41 Speaker 04: Councillor Koepke.

01:49:44 Speaker 04: In favour.

01:49:47 Speaker 04: Councillor Kukreja.

01:49:49 Speaker 04: In favour.

01:49:50 Speaker 04: Councillor Merton.

01:49:52 Speaker 04: In favour.

01:49:53 Speaker 04: Councillor Middlebro.

01:49:55 Speaker 04: In favour.

01:49:56 Speaker 04: Deputy Mayor Greig.

01:49:58 Speaker 04: In favour.

01:50:00 Speaker 04: Mayor Boddy.

01:50:01 Speaker 04: In favour.

01:50:02 Speaker 18: The resolution carries with eight in favour and zero opposed.

01:50:06 Speaker 18: Good, thank you.

01:50:07 Speaker 18: Good work.

01:50:09 Speaker 19: Second motion that the committee rise and report moved by myself, that the committee of the whole rise and report.

01:50:16 Speaker 19: All in favour.

01:50:17 Speaker 19: All the hands went up.

01:50:18 Speaker 19: Councillor Dodd's hand went up.

01:50:19 Speaker 19: Number eight.

01:50:20 Speaker 19: Motion to adopt proceedings.

01:50:22 Speaker 19: Moved by myself, seconded by Deputy Mayor Greig, that the action taken, committee of the whole in considering deputations and presentations and reports of city staff, be confirmed by this council.

01:50:33 Speaker 19: All in favour.

01:50:34 Speaker 19: And that is carried.

01:50:35 Speaker 19: Councillor Dodd voted for the bylaw.

01:50:38 Speaker 05: You'll move it in a second.

01:50:41 Speaker 05: Bylaw number 2025-035, bylaw to confirm the proceedings of the special meeting of the council of the corporation, the City of Owen Sound, on the twenty-eighth day of April, two thousand and twenty-five.

01:50:53 Speaker 19: Moved by myself, seconded by Deputy Mayor Greig, that bylaw number 2025-035 be passed and enacted.

01:50:59 Speaker 19: All in favour.

01:51:00 Speaker 19: That is carried.

01:51:01 Speaker 19: So that completes our business.

01:51:03 Speaker 19: Councillor Dodd voted for that.

01:51:05 Speaker 19: I keep forgetting to add that.

01:51:06 Speaker 02: That completes our business in the special meeting.

01:51:11 Speaker 02: So we'll adjourn.

01:51:12 Speaker 02: There's dinner downstairs, and we'll have to be back up here to socialize and be ready to.