Owen Sound Council Meeting Transcript — March 9, 2026

00:00:10 Ian Boddy: Okay.

00:00:11 Ian Boddy: Good evening, everyone.

00:00:12 Ian Boddy: This is One Sound City Council, March ninth, calling the meeting to order.

00:00:17 Ian Boddy: First off, calling for any additional business.

00:00:19 Ian Boddy: Councilor Farmer.

00:00:20 Jon Farmer: Thank you.

00:00:22 Jon Farmer: I'll have two items: one promoting the Community Safety and Wellbeing Plan survey again, now that there's about a month left, and also talking about parking at city facilities.

00:00:35 Jon Farmer: Good.

00:00:37 Ian Boddy: Thank you.

00:00:37 Ian Boddy: Anyone else looking left, looking right, looking on screen?

00:00:41 Ian Boddy: Councilor Merton.

00:00:44 Carol Merton: For you, Mayor.

00:00:44 Carol Merton: I'll have two education events upcoming to mention.

00:00:50 Carol Merton: Good.

00:00:51 Ian Boddy: Thank you.

00:00:51 Ian Boddy: I do note Councilor Dodd is on the motions tonight.

00:00:56 Ian Boddy: Councilor Kukreja, though we haven't seen her yet, and Councilor Merton are attending or participating by Zoom.

00:01:02 Ian Boddy: With regard to additional business, I note that an additional closed item is being added to the closed session agenda.

00:01:11 Ian Boddy: It is an urgent matter that requires consideration before the next council meeting.

00:01:16 Ian Boddy: This item will be included in the motion to move into closed session and my reporting out notes.

00:01:25 Ian Boddy: Additional business for me.

00:01:27 Ian Boddy: I want to recognize International Women's Day from yesterday.

00:01:36 Ian Boddy: Confirmation of council minutes.

00:01:39 Ian Boddy: Oops, sorry.

00:01:40 Ian Boddy: Number three, declaration of interests.

00:01:43 Ian Boddy: Go ahead.

00:01:45 Brock Hamley: Thank you, Your Worship.

00:01:47 Brock Hamley: I'm declaring a direct pecuniary interest on item eleven A, which is the Rural Ontario Development Program, the nature of my interest is that I work for the Government of Ontario.

00:01:57 Brock Hamley: Good, thank you.

00:01:59 Ian Boddy: Seeing no one else, now we'll go to number four.

00:02:02 Ian Boddy: Council confirmation of minutes.

00:02:05 Travis Dodd: Thank you, Worship.

00:02:06 Travis Dodd: Moved by myself, second by Councillor Farmer, that the minutes of the following meetings be adopted as printed.

00:02:10 Travis Dodd: Regular council meeting held on February twenty-three, two thousand and twenty-six, and special council meeting held on March two, two thousand and twenty-six.

00:02:19 Travis Dodd: And all in favor.

00:02:20 Travis Dodd: That's carried.

00:02:21 Ian Boddy: Councilor Merton is in favor on screen, so that's carried.

00:02:26 Ian Boddy: Thank you, Worship.

00:02:49 Ian Boddy: Moved by myself, second by Councillor Farmer, that City Council now move into Committee of the Whole to consider public meetings, deputations, and presentations, public forum matters arising from correspondence, reports of city staff, consent agenda, committee minutes, matters postponed, motions for which notice was previously given.

00:02:58 Ian Boddy: Thank you.

00:02:59 Ian Boddy: Call the question.

00:02:59 Ian Boddy: Councilor Merton is in favor.

00:03:00 Ian Boddy: Everyone in the room is in favor, so that's carried.

00:03:02 Ian Boddy: So we're now in Committee of the Whole.

00:03:03 Ian Boddy: At number six, we have no public meetings.

00:03:05 Ian Boddy: At number seven, we have a deputation from C.J. Palumbi, operations manager with Van Dolder Developments, with regard to residential height permissions.

00:03:29 Cj Palumbi: Welcome, C.J. I just wanted to bring to your attention that as developers in the community at large, that we're just trying to find a way to increase our ability to get projects moving forward faster.

00:03:39 Cj Palumbi: And a lot of times, when we get into official plan amendments, it just really delays the time frame.

00:03:40 Cj Palumbi: There is a change of plan to go from twelve meters or fifteen meters to go to twenty meters, which is a recommendation by the city or your department, a planning department.

00:03:42 Cj Palumbi: But we're looking at that and thinking that's a very short-term vision.

00:04:07 Cj Palumbi: When you look at the development of different surrounding communities, they're looking at forty-two meter options with guardrails in place to ensure that developers can actually develop these buildings in a very cost-effective manner.

00:04:17 Cj Palumbi: So it comes down to affordable housing options.

00:04:18 Cj Palumbi: So an example for ours is that we went to a footprint where we had three separate apartments pre-COVID.

00:04:20 Cj Palumbi: It was affordable at around two two hundred and fifty square foot.

00:04:22 Cj Palumbi: Now with the change of costs and what you're looking at, you're about three hundred and seventy-five square foot.

00:04:23 Cj Palumbi: So the only way to reduce costs is not to go to a wider platform or footprint, but to go to a taller footprint, which makes it much more affordable.

00:04:25 Cj Palumbi: Opening up more green space, more amenities.

00:04:27 Cj Palumbi: So the space that we had, that we had an L-shaped apartment compared to this. now eight-story apartment, that's going to have a pickleball court, outdoor amenity space, a park, at the same time underground parking, and will actually allow this particular building to be in addition to our East Court residences.

00:04:42 Cj Palumbi: But this isn't just about us as an organization.

00:04:44 Cj Palumbi: This is about development in general and the city at large.

00:04:48 Cj Palumbi: Is that it would be nice to see more progressive changes being made to the amendments or the planning itself officially, so that actually you have more guardrails in place or appropriate guardrails in place and reducing the amount of time it takes for red tape.

00:05:02 Cj Palumbi: So for us, we start planning these projects seven years, at least seven to eight years in the past, and now we're moving forward to these projects.

00:05:10 Cj Palumbi: Now the amount of money that goes into these projects and the time constraints that you get into, when you start adding more more timeframes and more consultants and more fees, you're making it so it's it's really really difficult for us to be able to to move these projects forward in a timely manner, and I think every developer across the board can can attest to that.

00:05:31 Cj Palumbi: We know that rules and regulations need to be in place, but we're also looking at and saying, maybe instead of making a decision to go five meters, which is only a story and a half, we should look at something that allows the development of larger buildings in the community as long as they follow and abide by the zoning regulations and in those areas.

00:05:50 Cj Palumbi: So, the slideshow I think you've all got a copy of that, and I can zip through that pretty quickly and just go through the yellow portions of it.

00:05:59 Cj Palumbi: So we're really trying to create an affordable housing option, faster approvals, whoops, more housing certainty, better better opportunity for better use of staff time and council's time, better designed buildings, and more development.

00:06:12 Cj Palumbi: More developers are going to look at this area and think it's more developer friendly.

00:06:16 Cj Palumbi: One of the interesting things is that the developers are the pillars of your community.

00:06:18 Cj Palumbi: These are the people that are spending hundreds of millions of dollars here, and when you're doing consultations and having recommendations being made by other groups to come in and and and give information to your planning department, I contacted Barry's Construction ourselves, looked at the other developers, Skyline, and and and asked them did anybody call you from Owen Sound to get your opinion on what their changes were going to be.

00:06:48 Cj Palumbi: Nobody was called.

00:07:05 Cj Palumbi: Nobody had nobody took the time to call the actual developers to ask them what their opinions were and how can they see the development of Owen Sound and what do they want to do to help in the investment in Owen Sound.

00:07:15 Cj Palumbi: So I found that that was interesting that that wasn't brought up to them.

00:07:16 Cj Palumbi: So go back to the next slide here.

00:07:18 Cj Palumbi: We'll look at key principles.

00:07:19 Cj Palumbi: The council can set the rules and let the planning department just do their job, which is implement all the changes or. regulate all the things that need to be done.

00:07:21 Cj Palumbi: When you have to come back and do an official plan amendment, that just adds another six months to a year down the road to prevent a developer from developing.

00:07:26 Cj Palumbi: Not just us, but any developer.

00:07:28 Cj Palumbi: Reliable timelines.

00:07:44 Cj Palumbi: It just goes through the timelines that you get into your anywhere from seven to ten years to build a build a project in East Court Residence.

00:07:53 Cj Palumbi: We've built fifty-seven townhouses, twenty-seven semi-detached units, and then the apartment plus Owen Sound Gardens on seventeen acres.

00:07:55 Cj Palumbi: We're going to have about eight hundred people living in that area, but to create that affordably, it took a lot of time and energy to get there.

00:07:57 Cj Palumbi: We could have expedited the process if the plan was in place by starting the foundations in the spring.

00:07:59 Cj Palumbi: But again, we're back to trying to get the planning amendment to get this building height changed.

00:08:01 Cj Palumbi: Not just about us, but I think most builders would say the same thing.

00:08:05 Cj Palumbi: You can go up a lot more effectively and more affordably, and create the housing environment that Owen Sound wants for the community at large.

00:08:14 Cj Palumbi: Policy lens today: incremental changes going from fifteen to twenty is really a story and a half.

00:08:16 Cj Palumbi: That's not really going to be a great incentive for builders to build in a four-story or five-story application.

00:08:20 Cj Palumbi: Again, higher is better, and you'll get a lot more housing in that that increment.

00:08:32 Cj Palumbi: Delivery reality is as housing gets built.

00:08:54 Cj Palumbi: To be honest, when we went looked at our footprint from a L-shaped building, which was one hundred and thirty-six units, to an eight-story one hundred and thirty-five unit, the savings was over thirty percent.

00:09:03 Cj Palumbi: So you're going from a seventy million dollar build to a fifty million dollar build.

00:09:05 Cj Palumbi: That's dramatic.

00:09:05 Cj Palumbi: Looking at the cost increases, but knowing that you can go up and add more incremental spaces around it, that made a significant difference in our decision to go up rather than to make the footprints.

00:09:12 Cj Palumbi: Rather than to make the footprint, so it would have been easier just to to follow that from the get go, rather than spending the millions we spent with the consultants and everybody else, and engineers and architects to get that L-shaped building design first, and then after going to Tillsonburg and Woodstock and Midland, saying, "Hey, we we just need to go up.

00:09:21 Cj Palumbi: We can't we can't go out.

00:09:22 Cj Palumbi: It's way more affordable to go up."

00:09:24 Cj Palumbi: This is just kind of the site context.

00:09:26 Cj Palumbi: This is where we are located.

00:09:28 Cj Palumbi: But again, this is just a generic area.

00:09:31 Cj Palumbi: We're located by different zoning facets around us.

00:09:33 Cj Palumbi: It's not it's not going to affect any any other residential housing really around the area that we're in.

00:09:38 Cj Palumbi: So that's a pretty easy easy easy approval.

00:09:41 Cj Palumbi: I would think once you take a look at all the information and all what we've come up with and all the planning, that's that's great.

00:09:46 Cj Palumbi: But this goes to anybody who's building in the area.

00:09:48 Cj Palumbi: Wouldn't it be great to just say, "Hey, if you follow this criteria, you can build up to set amount of stories." without having to do a planning amendment or a planning change.

00:09:54 Cj Palumbi: Looking at the zoning, there's all the different zoning requirements that are necessary.

00:09:59 Cj Palumbi: We only really missed two, which was the how many people you're allowed per square meter, and with regards to the height restrictions, everything else kind of kind of abides by that.

00:10:11 Cj Palumbi: At the end of the day, it comes down to housing supply, urban design, and governance and efficiency.

00:10:16 Cj Palumbi: Again, if council was allowing a larger or higher building, then the planning department can follow and do their job and make sure that the policies and procedures and all the information is being done, and therefore it's not just an open book.

00:10:32 Cj Palumbi: It is following these policies and procedures that allow these people or developers to build these buildings in a timely manner and effectively and affordably.

00:10:43 Cj Palumbi: Site infrastructure.

00:10:49 Cj Palumbi: Site and infrastructure tests.

00:10:50 Cj Palumbi: It just goes without saying that there's so much work that goes into a project, and so much time that takes to get through before a shovel hits the ground, and you're looking at millions and millions of dollars at the same time.

00:10:56 Cj Palumbi: Development charges are always one of those things that I think every developer always has a hard time with.

00:11:01 Cj Palumbi: We know that there's a policy that's in place now.

00:11:04 Cj Palumbi: It would be great if that development charge policy was when the building's open that development charges were more applicable because there's revenue coming in rather than expecting the developer to put out another couple of million dollars in a project like this for development charges.

00:11:17 Cj Palumbi: Looking at the criteria, this is the steps that you have to go through to get something done.

00:11:23 Cj Palumbi: Again, it gets into what you have to do to go from Plan A or Step A to Step B, and that's the hard part is just the amount of cost that gets into building any sort of building and affordable housing option is is one of those things that I. think is on the mandate for Owen Sound in general.

00:11:45 Cj Palumbi: People used to stay in their houses between five and seven years.

00:11:47 Cj Palumbi: Now people are staying in their houses between ten and fifteen years because they have this false impression that their house is worth pre-COVID pricing or post-COVID pricing, and it's not anymore.

00:11:55 Cj Palumbi: So they have a hard time giving up that amount of money that they think it's worth, but it's not worth that anymore.

00:12:00 Cj Palumbi: So that's where I think a lot of this, even in Owen Sound, comes to play.

00:12:05 Cj Palumbi: In our area, from what we built, we have a list of ninety people on a waiting list to move into our area.

00:12:12 Cj Palumbi: I could build another subdivision easily, but that just comes at a cost.

00:12:14 Cj Palumbi: So building an apartment makes a lot more sense to help house these ninety people that want to live in the community that we've created so far.

00:12:23 Cj Palumbi: The criteria that's that's also always out there, which is all the things that you have to come up with.

00:12:29 Cj Palumbi: You already know what these things are already.

00:12:32 Cj Palumbi: Recommendations is just staff delegation coming right down to it.

00:12:34 Cj Palumbi: Again, if you've got a policy in place that allows a higher building.

00:12:37 Cj Palumbi: You folks can do your job, your planning, and and department and building department can do their job, and we reduce the amount of red tape.

00:12:46 Cj Palumbi: And then recommendation for motion: direct staff to prepare zoning and amendments, 42 meters wide, right across the entirety of Owen Sound and surrounding areas.

00:12:48 Cj Palumbi: Direct staff to align with the density permissions from one to 1.5, allows people to build between an eight and a 12 story application.

00:12:55 Cj Palumbi: Direct staff to do a wide performance standards package, and direct staff to return with a public consultation implementation schedule, and making sure that all that information is correct, and we're done.

00:13:25 SPEAKER_015: Thank you.

00:13:26 SPEAKER_015: Any questions for CJ and his presentation?

00:13:30 SPEAKER_015: Can't see the screen, but is your hand up?

00:13:34 SPEAKER_015: Oh, go ahead, Marion.

00:13:36 SPEAKER_015: Just a quick question.

00:13:38 SPEAKER_015: I know previously the city always took into consideration the fire regulations and the ladder truck, etc. Can you tell me your response to those concerns that were addressed before?

00:13:44 Cj Palumbi: When you take a look at the fire regulations, what we had to do to this particular building was put a pump house in and have sealed off stairwells and ensure that we followed all the criteria necessary for a building of that particular height.

00:13:59 Cj Palumbi: Fire and safety is paramount for any sort of building that we're going to build, and we did take a look at the regulations and what's there.

00:14:06 Cj Palumbi: But there are things that can be done for a building to ensure that it has all the right fire suppression systems in place, so that if it is a higher building, nobody's going to get injured or potentially get injured or get hurt.

00:14:17 Cj Palumbi: So.

00:14:23 Cj Palumbi: Get injured, get hurt.

00:14:29 SPEAKER_015: So there are criteria that are that are steps that you have to take in order to build a building of that height.

00:14:40 SPEAKER_015: Does that answer your question?

00:14:42 SPEAKER_134: Thank you.

00:14:42 SPEAKER_134: I know in other municipalities, of course, buildings are higher and higher, and they certainly have regulations in place.

00:14:52 Good: And I don't disagree that Owen Sound could do something like that.

00:14:55 Good: Scott, thank you.

00:14:56 Good: And I don't disagree that Owen Sound should consider something like that.

00:15:00 Good: I've yet to see a fire truck that reaches to the top of First Canadian Place in downtown Toronto.

00:15:01 Good: So I think there's a little bit of a falsehood in terms of meeting your building height criteria with the height of what your fire trucks can reach.

00:15:16 Good: Quick question: You mentioned underground parking.

00:15:18 Good: It is part of a project.

00:15:20 Good: I am not sure where you are at within the city's context of planning at this time, but this is.

00:15:27 Good: I think your time is great.

00:15:29 Good: I am happy to, and I have in the past championed.

00:15:30 Good: I think higher buildings are necessary and should be considered in our zoning bylaw and official plans.

00:15:32 Good: It has been discussed the potential of some tradeoffs if you go higher.

00:15:38 Good: I've always thought underground parking, where we can achieve underground parking, achieves so much more than just a barren parking lot that has expensive stormwater management consulting engineers doing the work, the construction, the loading on our on our water on our on our stormwater system.

00:16:02 Good: Could you tell me more about the underground parking that you're considering, and how it might relate to?

00:16:11 Good: And this might then be a question for staff.

00:16:15 Good: Where could we be at for underground parking in consideration of ten and twelve meter high buildings to improve?

00:16:24 Good: If we've got the servicing capacity there to support the development, let's minimize the environmental effects.

00:16:32 Good: Because we have a part of our reports; every report says climate and environmental impacts.

00:16:50 Cj Palumbi: This, to me, speaks significantly to reducing certain environmental impacts of just great big barren parking lots.

00:16:55 Cj Palumbi: So we have the underground parking space that we have.

00:16:57 Cj Palumbi: So we have the footprint of the building itself, and then we have double the size of that footprint, which will be underground under the parking area, so our parking spaces are 105, I believe, for that building, and then there's above ground parking.

00:17:04 Cj Palumbi: So we're putting 105 parking spaces under the building, along with a car wash and a pet wash and a wood shop and other amenities for the people that are in the building that can enjoy those amenities as well.

00:17:22 Cj Palumbi: We felt that that was a better option, more storage facilities, that kind of thing that would be underground.

00:17:28 Cj Palumbi: Therefore, offering more amenity space in the second level or the first level, which will have a bistro area, which will have a gym, a yoga area, which will have an amenity space with an open kitchen.

00:17:40 Cj Palumbi: At the same time, the pickleball courts, the barbecue areas, that we couldn't do any of that if we had not put underground parking in.

00:17:48 Cj Palumbi: So by going up and having this much larger underground parking footprint, that's dramatically reduced what we've had to put up top, and then it's increased, of course, more park-like space, which is why I think this.

00:18:02 Good: Spaces just.

00:18:03 Good: I think the city is looking for us to ensure that we have places for these people to go and enjoy some outdoor spacing.

00:18:10 Good: I'll be quick, but I think that sounds terrific because I remember certain concerns within the community even when that existed as a wood lot prior to all the development.

00:18:12 Good: And if we can intensify and minimize just paving over everything in stillery to the construction, I think that's wonderful.

00:18:30 Ian Boddy: So thanks for the deputation.

00:18:32 Ian Boddy: Well, I'm just I'm just going to point out here that you're here to present on us changing the zoning or the official plan with regard to height.

00:18:34 Ian Boddy: We're getting into basements and other things and what the amenities are going to be.

00:18:37 Ian Boddy: We're going down a different direction than what we're actually here to listen to.

00:18:55 Carol Merton: I'm going to go to Councillor Merton next.

00:18:58 Carol Merton: Through your worship, thank you for the deputation, and certainly it has prompted a lot of questions back and forth to staff.

00:19:09 Carol Merton: My understanding there is a report coming forward from staff.

00:19:13 Carol Merton: What's really important is that we work from a common definition of affordability, based on what Owen Sound needs are for rentals.

00:19:25 Cj Palumbi: And I'm wondering if you could please just—you've mentioned affordability in your presentation several times.

00:19:30 Cj Palumbi: What is your understanding of that threshold measure for rentals?

00:19:37 Cj Palumbi: So affordability gets into a play of a working person who can afford to live in an apartment.

00:19:42 Cj Palumbi: It isn't based upon supplemental housing and offering people monies from the city or from.

00:19:47 Cj Palumbi: Moneys from the city or from the county to live in a particular area.

00:19:55 Cj Palumbi: So, what we look at as affordable housing is being able to create spaces that people who are working class citizens of Owen Sound can afford to live in those spaces.

00:20:06 Jon Farmer: Councillor Farmer, and I'm going to go to Ms. Coulter.

00:20:10 Jon Farmer: Thank you, through the mayor.

00:20:11 Jon Farmer: Clarifying question: The slideshow includes the term "political amendments" a number of times.

00:20:18 Jon Farmer: I was wondering if you could give me or council an example of that.

00:20:23 Jon Farmer: My understanding as a first-term councillor is that, in fact, Ontario as a province has changed municipalities' ability to have a variety of say at all on anything from site plan approval to densities.

00:20:25 Jon Farmer: In just the three and a half years that I've been here, so I'm I'm confused about that term and was hoping for some explanation of what that might be.

00:20:35 Cj Palumbi: One, the Ontario housing changes some of the criteria that are necessary.

00:20:39 Cj Palumbi: Shadow studies are one, for example, or flight path studies are they're asking they're saying we we don't have to do those things.

00:21:23 Cj Palumbi: But when you go from a fifteen meter increment to a twenty nine meter increment, which we're going to, you need to have those extra that extra information added into your proposal from your representatives for your party, and or for you for for our organization in order for us to get these things accomplished.

00:21:32 Cj Palumbi: Which is we have to present it to council saying these are the reasons why we recommend that an angular study is important.

00:21:34 Cj Palumbi: This is the reason why the density is is important for for what your what your what your criteria is.

00:21:36 Cj Palumbi: But this is a better a better fit.

00:21:47 Cj Palumbi: There's always a political red tape that you get into as to what sometimes is not necessary, but is asked for, and so the expectation is on developer to ensure that we have more than enough information to provide to the planning department and to council, so that we can actually have this move forward.

00:21:56 Cj Palumbi: So that political part of it is it's a little bit of political red tape you get into, trying to figure out how much is too much and how much do we have to provide when we're actually supplying you information on what our potential bill is going to be like.

00:22:09 SPEAKER_118: I think every developer can say the same.

00:22:11 SPEAKER_118: Does that answer?

00:22:12 SPEAKER_118: Okay.

00:22:13 SPEAKER_118: Now, do you have something different?

00:22:18 Pam Coulter: I just wanted to clarify that I do agree.

00:22:21 Pam Coulter: I think the councillor thought I didn't agree, but I do agree that heights can be high.

00:22:31 Pam Coulter: Ms. Coulter.

00:22:54 Pam Coulter: Thank you, Your Worship, and thanks to Mr. Palumbi for his presentation tonight, and on behalf of Peter Van Dolder, just a couple of comments.

00:23:04 Pam Coulter: In 2019, this developer had done an OPA and site-specific zoning that set or established the provisions that govern how this property is developed today.

00:23:06 Pam Coulter: That was pre-pandemic, and as the presenters said tonight, our thinking, driven by many things, since that time has changed.

00:23:07 Pam Coulter: In terms of our process, you know, we follow what the Planning Act says in terms of how we engage with developers, and while we didn't call them, there certainly was lots of opportunity for public engagement.

00:23:19 Pam Coulter: We did look at the history of amendments to help inform the report that will come back to council.

00:23:46 Pam Coulter: So, with Mr. Palumbi and Mr. Van Dolder's approval, we had shared this as an input that would be considered as part of the overall update to the official plan and zoning bylaw at your March 23rd meeting.

00:23:55 Pam Coulter: Together with all the other inputs, and I think there were seven recommendations from council.

00:23:57 Pam Coulter: We'll be bringing back a report to you.

00:23:58 Ian Boddy: Among the changes that you'll see in a few weeks' time is around height and density.

00:24:00 Ian Boddy: So, trying to balance individual sites with what would or may apply across the city.

00:24:03 Ian Boddy: Good.

00:24:03 Ian Boddy: Thank you.

00:24:04 Ian Boddy: So, as we're looking at the official plan update, your input will be going into it, and that'll be part of the consideration.

00:24:24 Ian Boddy: So, thank you for coming in and presenting that to us, and sharing your thoughts on it.

00:24:38 Randy Scherzer: Thanks.

00:24:39 Randy Scherzer: This one I pushed twice.

00:24:40 Randy Scherzer: Now we have a deputation from Randy Scherzer, our CAO, and Niall Lobley, deputy CAO of Grey County, with regard to municipal road transfers.

00:24:46 Randy Scherzer: Thank you very much, Mayor Boddy, and members of council.

00:24:48 Randy Scherzer: Thank you for having this on your agenda today.

00:24:50 Randy Scherzer: As the mayor and the CAO, my name is Randy Scherzer.

00:24:54 Randy Scherzer: I'm CAO for Grey County.

00:24:57 Randy Scherzer: With me virtually today is Niall Lobley, our deputy CAO.

00:25:03 Randy Scherzer: He's going to assist as I go through this presentation as well.

00:25:06 Randy Scherzer: And with me also today is Director of Transportation Services Pat Hoy, and we have Trevor Irton, our Engineering Manager as well.

00:25:12 Randy Scherzer: So we're here today to provide an update on the road transfers project, highlight some next steps, and to answer any questions that Council may have with respect to this road transfers project.

00:25:16 Randy Scherzer: If the chair is okay, we recommend we go through the entire presentation, open up for questions at the end.

00:25:21 Randy Scherzer: There may be some questions that you have top of mind.

00:25:24 Randy Scherzer: I know this Council has already had some discussions as well.

00:25:27 Randy Scherzer: I watched that this morning as I was prepping, as I was getting ready for work, and so appreciate all the time that's been spent in this topic from both staff and Council, and hopefully we're here to answer any further questions you may have, and then have some further discussions as we move forward as well.

00:25:45 Randy Scherzer: So today's presentation is intended to provide clear, practical information to Council about the proposed road transfers that affect the City of Owen Sound.

00:25:54 Randy Scherzer: We'll cover the why behind the project, the principles that were used to determine what should be transferred, the progress made to date, the funding model, the transition work that still needs to occur as part of this transition process, and talk about the proposed transfer dates.

00:26:11 Randy Scherzer: The goal of the project is about improving the overall Grey County road network, and more specifically addressing some of the competing roles and functions of county roads within urban areas, as identified by the most recent transportation master plan and the actions that were previously approved by County Council.

00:26:28 Randy Scherzer: Those have been now incorporated as part of the County Official Plan.

00:26:32 Randy Scherzer: A task force was established to review the county road network with a focus on improving the system, including how roads function inside settlement areas.

00:26:41 Randy Scherzer: The review resulted in two core network improvement principles.

00:26:45 Randy Scherzer: One is that roads serving through traffic and regional functions should be transferred to the county, and what we refer to as the uploads.

00:26:53 Randy Scherzer: And roads serving primarily a local function should be transferred to the local municipality, which we refer to as the downloads.

00:27:09 Randy Scherzer: The key message is simple: align roads with their intended function.

00:27:12 Randy Scherzer: Right road, right owner.

00:27:13 Randy Scherzer: I do want to emphasize that this is not a new concept that's created isolation.

00:27:15 Randy Scherzer: It's a countywide multi-year initiative that's been reviewed publicly, and in partnership with member municipalities back through the transportation master plan process, as noted, which is ten plus years ago.

00:27:22 Randy Scherzer: The county official plan process, which is a few years ago, and ultimately culminating in the task force process over the last two to three years.

00:27:32 Randy Scherzer: So this slide just reinforces the why in one line.

00:27:35 Randy Scherzer: We're aligning road ownership with the intended function of the road.

00:27:40 Randy Scherzer: So in practice that means putting local roads under local control, where community-specific decisions can be made quickly and clearly, and ensuring the county network focuses on regional connectivity and through movement across Grey County.

00:27:56 Randy Scherzer: So, Grey County, we maintain a network of approximately 870 kilometers of roads.

00:28:01 Randy Scherzer: Most of that network is what we call rural roads.

00:28:03 Randy Scherzer: So, about 85% of our network is what we call rural.

00:28:07 Randy Scherzer: The remainder is urban and semi-urban.

00:28:11 Randy Scherzer: In urban settings, Grey County maintains roads curb to curb, while the local municipality maintains the underground infrastructure, things like water mains, sewer mains, as well as some of the above-ground infrastructure, things like sidewalks and some of the street lighting.

00:28:25 Randy Scherzer: That split responsibility requires ongoing coordination of operations, budgets, and capital plans.

00:28:38 Randy Scherzer: The challenge is that when two tiers are responsible for different parts of that same road section, it can create duplication and delays, and it becomes harder for either tier to operate efficiently.

00:28:47 Randy Scherzer: It also creates public confusion about who is responsible for what, and it can constrain local councils in the areas that residents most often expect their local councils to consider things like speed limits, parking bylaws, and other community-level traffic and curbside decisions.

00:29:04 Randy Scherzer: The county's priority in maintaining its road network is keeping connectivity between communities via regional and provincial corridors.

00:29:12 Randy Scherzer: At times, that conflicts with member municipal priorities, which is being responsive to local community needs, supporting local economic developments, and coordinating road corridors with service-related infrastructure like water and wastewater and storm sewer.

00:29:33 Randy Scherzer: And wastewater and storm systems.

00:29:36 Randy Scherzer: The appropriate road authority provides the local municipality with greater flexibility and ability to meet local needs in areas such as, and you'll see on the screen, construction coordination, entrance permits, utility placement, pedestrians and cyclists, local maintenance in summer and winter, right of way issues, speed limits, and parking.

00:30:00 Randy Scherzer: The project is designed to improve those outcomes by reducing overlap and aligning authority with the function of the road.

00:30:07 Randy Scherzer: So this slide just summarizes the benefits that come with local management of road sections within settlement areas: timely response to issues, a better understanding of local needs, stronger community engagement, more cost-effective budgeting for local priorities, adaptability to local conditions, and greater accountability.

00:30:26 Randy Scherzer: When one level of government has clear responsibility for the corridor, it becomes easier to plan, budget, and deliver that work, and residents have a clear line of sight of who is accountable for that work.

00:30:40 Randy Scherzer: So, in summary, maintaining local roads offers a range of benefits, from increased responsiveness to community needs to more efficient budgeting and reduced economic impacts within the community.

00:30:49 Randy Scherzer: Local control allows municipalities to choose how best to approach road maintenance in a way that reflects the unique needs and characteristics of each community, including in this case, the City of Owen Sound.

00:30:56 Randy Scherzer: On the rural side, we've seen that some rural roads now have higher volumes and are increasingly used as bypass routes.

00:31:04 Randy Scherzer: Higher volumes and different driver habits, including heavy goods traffic, can require different service levels.

00:31:10 Randy Scherzer: In some of the cases, adding strategic rural roads to the regional network can provide county-wide benefits.

00:31:16 Randy Scherzer: It can support things like trucking routes around communities.

00:31:19 Randy Scherzer: It can support tourism traffic flow.

00:31:21 Randy Scherzer: It can take non-local traffic off local roads, and it supports the efficient movement of goods across the county.

00:31:29 Randy Scherzer: Local municipalities may not always have the same resources to manage higher volume regional roads, and those resources often do exist at the county level.

00:31:41 Randy Scherzer: So again, this slide reinforces that aligning strategic rural roads with the county network improves regional connectivity.

00:31:48 Randy Scherzer: The intent is to ensure that the county road network performs as a connected regional system, while local municipal systems remain focused on serving local travel patterns, local land uses, and local community priorities.

00:32:03 Randy Scherzer: So the road transfer approach in both urban and rural contexts is guided.

00:32:11 Randy Scherzer: And rural context is guided by these consensus set of principles: aligning road control and authority with appropriate road authority, empowering member municipalities to respond to local priorities, reducing duplication and using tax dollars more efficiently, ensuring funding follows the roads, and supporting sustainable maintenance and service levels over time.

00:32:39 Randy Scherzer: And this is what we call the funds follow function principle.

00:32:42 Randy Scherzer: It is important.

00:32:43 Randy Scherzer: The county is proposing transition funding that is tied to the proportional asset values being transferred, and we'll get into that in a little bit in the slides.

00:32:54 Randy Scherzer: So this begins the map section of the presentation, and it's showing the proposed road transfers in Owen Sound.

00:33:00 Randy Scherzer: The maps are included so that council and the public can clearly see what segments are proposed and where those limits are.

00:33:10 Randy Scherzer: For Owen Sound, the roads proposed for transfer are parts of Grey Road One, Five, and Fifteen that are located within Owen Sound, and there is one road section on the boundary between Owen Sound and the Municipality of Meffert.

00:33:21 Randy Scherzer: There are still questions about whether or not that will be an actual shared road, so we'll have to have some further conversations with both Owen Sound and Meffert and through county staff.

00:33:31 Randy Scherzer: The map on the screen shows the section of Grey Road Fifteen, better known as Third Avenue East and East Bayshore Road.

00:34:06 Randy Scherzer: This section of road runs from Sixth Street East and runs five point nine kilometers to the north settlement boundary, which is located nine hundred twenty meters north of Thirty Second Street East.

00:34:16 Randy Scherzer: This map shows a section of Grey Road One that would be transferred again to Owen Sound, known as parts of Second Avenue West, Eddie Sargent Parkway, and Third Avenue West.

00:34:18 Randy Scherzer: This road section runs from Tenth Street West and runs 3.1 kilometers to the North Settlement Boundary, which is located about 150 meters north of 29th Street West.

00:34:40 Randy Scherzer: This map shows the section of Grey Road Five proposed to be transferred, known as parts of Second Avenue East, Sixth Street East, Eighth Street East, and 28th Avenue East.

00:34:50 Randy Scherzer: For the parts of Grey Road Five that are entirely within Owen Sound, the road section runs from First Street Southwest for approximately 1.58 kilometers along Second Avenue East to Sixth Street East, and then along Sixth Street East for approximately 1.21 kilometers, for a total length of that section being approximately 2.79 kilometers to Ninth Avenue East.

00:34:52 Randy Scherzer: The remaining parts of Grey Road Five, entirely within Owen Sound, run from Ninth Avenue East and run approximately 2.73 kilometers along Eighth Street East to Twenty-Eighth Avenue East, and again that section of Twenty-Eighth Avenue East that is on the boundary between Owen Sound and Meffert that would be potentially a shared road.

00:35:08 Randy Scherzer: But as noted, further discussions would have to occur with respect to that particular section.

00:35:14 Randy Scherzer: In total, the Grey Road Five parts that will be transferred is approximately 6.4 kilometers in length, and less than one kilometer is that section on Twenty-Eighth Avenue East.

00:35:24 Randy Scherzer: All of these urban road sections function within the settlement area and interface directly with the municipal infrastructure that I mentioned earlier, things like water, sewer lines and other underground infrastructure, as well as other community level priorities that were mentioned earlier, and that's why they're proposed for the local ownership under the right road, right owner approach.

00:35:45 Randy Scherzer: Some of the key activities to date, and again, I'm focusing in on the road task force portion of this session.

00:35:50 Randy Scherzer: As noted, there was engagement as part of the transportation master plan process, as part of the Recolour Grey process.

00:36:09 Randy Scherzer: But the road exchange task force was formed in February 2023 and includes representation of all nine member municipalities.

00:36:19 Randy Scherzer: There have been eight open meetings with minutes reviewed publicly through committee of the whole and then approved by council.

00:36:21 Randy Scherzer: Combined, there have been about 24 council meetings over the past four years where road exchange work was discussed.

00:36:37 Randy Scherzer: In addition to formal meetings, staff have met with municipal staff to discuss exchanges, and we look forward to continued discussions with staff as well as this council with respect to the maintenance contracts and shared details of the funding model.

00:36:47 Randy Scherzer: Public engagement has been a component of this work as well.

00:36:49 Randy Scherzer: In 2025, staff hosted a series of public open houses on the road exchanges.

00:36:51 Randy Scherzer: Transit station staff hosted seven drop-in public information sessions and received feedback from attendees.

00:36:57 Randy Scherzer: Some of the questions raised were with respect to road name changes, road maintenance, and future road reconstruction.

00:37:04 Randy Scherzer: Letters were also sent directly to residents whose addresses would be changed, inviting questions and inviting them to the open houses as well.

00:37:12 Randy Scherzer: The county has also maintained a dedicated webpage on the county's website, and there's a public comment form that's still active today.

00:37:20 Randy Scherzer: So, if anyone has any further comments, please submit those comments through the county's website.

00:37:24 Randy Scherzer: I'll now turn over to Niall to talk about some of the financial model with respect to this proposed road transfers.

00:37:33 Niall Lobley: Good evening, Mayor Boddy, Members of Council.

00:37:41 Niall Lobley: Thank you very much, and if we could go to the next slide, please.

00:37:43 Niall Lobley: So the financial model on which the county has based the transition funding relies on a number of pieces of data.

00:37:47 Niall Lobley: Probably the first one, the most critical one, is the value of the asset that we're talking about.

00:37:52 Niall Lobley: If we look at the 870 kilometres of road that the county looks after, that represents about $1.365 billion of infrastructure.

00:38:01 Niall Lobley: In short, if we were to take that infrastructure away today and have to rebuild it tomorrow, that's the replacement value.

00:38:07 Niall Lobley: That value is drawn directly from our asset management plan, which was last updated in 2023, is currently being updated again.

00:38:17 Niall Lobley: In 2026, we have a capital plan that's held within our transportation services, with a total value of about $20 million, that's about two percent of that $1.365 billion.

00:38:28 Niall Lobley: What that means is that in 2026 we will be investing about two cents on every dollar of asset value that the county holds in terms of its road infrastructure.

00:38:40 Niall Lobley: Doing some simple math, what that means is over the course of the next fifty to sixty years, that proportion of the county's capital budget will reinvest the value of our asset over the next fifty to sixty years.

00:38:53 Niall Lobley: Obviously, some pieces of the road infrastructure will need replaced sooner.

00:38:57 Niall Lobley: Others will last far longer than sixty years.

00:38:59 Niall Lobley: And so, but on the basis of averages, over fifty to sixty years, the county council approved transportation capital spend reinvests the total value of the road asset.

00:39:10 Niall Lobley: Next slide, please.

00:39:14 Niall Lobley: We develop a ten-year transportation capital plan, like most member municipalities.

00:39:19 Niall Lobley: That plan is designed to meet the priorities of our asset management plan and be delivered within the available funds that we expect to have.

00:39:27 Niall Lobley: The twenty million dollars capital budget that the county holds for transportation capital works each year has remained fairly stable as a proportion of the county's overall budget for several years, and so we work on the basis that that proportion of funding is likely to remain fairly stable over the next ten years.

00:39:44 Niall Lobley: That gives us a sort of a baseline budget to work from.

00:39:47 Niall Lobley: Our asset management plan defines a series of principles which we use then to prioritize the projects that will fit into that ten-year plan.

00:39:56 Niall Lobley: So we now have a number.

00:39:57 Niall Lobley: We now have a number of projects and the priority of projects.

00:40:00 Niall Lobley: Not all projects are included within the ten-year plan.

00:40:14 Niall Lobley: Indeed, most projects fall outside of the ten-year plan.

00:40:23 Niall Lobley: It will be in years ten to twenty, twenty and beyond, and so on.

00:40:25 Niall Lobley: There will be some projects that don't feature on any list anywhere in terms of our asset management because they're simply too far away for us to consider at this point in time.

00:40:33 Niall Lobley: We develop estimates for projects to help populate and get a sense of how many projects we can get done within the ten years.

00:40:43 Niall Lobley: Obviously, the projects that are in years nine and ten are a little bit of a guess.

00:40:45 Niall Lobley: We don't know what the industry pricing will be at that point in time.

00:40:47 Niall Lobley: We don't know which council we'll be sitting in front of, or what the political pressures might be at that point in time.

00:41:00 Niall Lobley: So the projects that are in nine to ten years are somewhat of a guess as to what might happen that far down the line.

00:41:10 Niall Lobley: As we get closer to current year within the capital year, a capital program, we gain greater certainty around what our budgets are likely to be and how much projects are likely to cost.

00:41:12 Niall Lobley: As we get to the one to three-year horizon, greater cost certainty can be achieved, and we have greater certainty over the potential for capital budget to be allocated towards transportation services.

00:41:13 Niall Lobley: We have a greater confidence in the cost and the likelihood of projects occurring.

00:41:15 Niall Lobley: However, even within that one to three years, we're still having to wait on county council to provide budget certainty each year through the budget process.

00:41:23 Niall Lobley: Projects are only completed when we have the budget approved by council to be able to do so.

00:41:30 Niall Lobley: In years where either costs are lower or council perhaps provides a little bit more money, we're able to achieve more projects.

00:41:37 Niall Lobley: In years where costs are higher or perhaps we don't achieve the same desired budget that we hope for in a year, we are able, we have to defer projects to later years.

00:41:46 Niall Lobley: So the budget, even in that one to three year, is not certain.

00:41:51 Niall Lobley: We establish that budget through a two-year budget setting process approved by county council.

00:41:56 Niall Lobley: Next slide, please.

00:42:00 Niall Lobley: So this graph, this graphic tries to demonstrate how we're planning the road transfers to fit into that overall spend.

00:42:07 Niall Lobley: So as we say, we're only reinvesting two percent of the total asset value each year, and that represents about twenty million dollars of spend.

00:42:15 Niall Lobley: That's the section of this road snake which is coloured in the lighter colours at the top, and that sort of purpley colour that makes its way around the first of the S bends.

00:42:24 Niall Lobley: That twenty million dollars we're proposing to transition use two million dollars, about two point three million in the first year, two million dollars of that twenty million dollars each year to support the transition of roads to member municipalities.

00:42:38 Niall Lobley: That will reduce the capital budget that the county has available to do the work on the balance of the roads by down to about eighteen million for the balance of the ten years while we're making those transition payments.

00:42:49 Niall Lobley: As noted, many projects at this point in time are well beyond the 10-year plan and currently under or unfunded.

00:42:56 Niall Lobley: In addition, as the CIO mentioned shortly ago, we'll be taking on a series of uploaded roads or rural roads which will be going from member municipalities to the county.

00:43:06 Niall Lobley: Those roads we will be fitting in to our existing capital funding pot, so they'll be fitted in with that 18 million that's left each year, and we'll be using the principles of our asset management plan to prioritize work.

00:43:19 Niall Lobley: So some of the work that will be required on those member municipality rural roads being uploaded to the county may take a long time.

00:43:28 Niall Lobley: In short, what we know is we do not have the funding for all of our asset management plan needs, just like every other municipality in Ontario.

00:43:37 Niall Lobley: However, using the principles of asset management and the available funds of county council each year, we hope to prioritize.

00:43:42 Niall Lobley: We hope to prioritise the investments we make in road infrastructure.

00:43:45 Niall Lobley: Next slide, please.

00:43:49 Niall Lobley: If we look at how that breaks down, our funding formula again very similar to the funding formulas that our in council use.

00:43:55 Niall Lobley: The majority of our twenty odd million dollars of capital funding each year comes from the levy.

00:44:01 Niall Lobley: About thirteen million dollars comes from levy.

00:44:04 Niall Lobley: The balance is made up from two funding sources: the Canada Community Building Fund, the former gas tax, which makes up about three point three million dollars, and then the Ontario Community Infrastructure Fund, which makes up about three point eight million dollars.

00:44:16 Niall Lobley: OCIF is, as you know, a flexible fund provided by the province that has a fixed limit across the province and is allocated to municipalities on a range of factors.

00:44:27 Niall Lobley: One of which, one of the most significant of which, is the asset management planning that each municipality does.

00:44:33 Niall Lobley: In two thousand and twenty-six, we're anticipating a twenty million dollars spend.

00:44:43 Niall Lobley: A twenty million dollar spend in our capital works from transportation.

00:44:45 Niall Lobley: When county council considers the budget, they're considering it over a two-year window.

00:44:47 Niall Lobley: So, in approving the two thousand and twenty-six budget and in the deliberations on the two thousand and twenty-six budget, county council is provided an insight into what staff believes the two thousand and twenty-seven budget will look like.

00:44:55 Niall Lobley: As decisions are made on the way to approving the two thousand and twenty-six budget, the two thousand and twenty-seven budget remains somewhat fluid.

00:45:02 Niall Lobley: At this point in time, whilst county council has only approved the two thousand and twenty-six budget, they are aware that staff have predicted and forecast a six point five seven percent rate on the two thousand and twenty-seven budget.

00:45:14 Niall Lobley: That is obviously subject to significant deliberation.

00:45:17 Niall Lobley: That's important to note because the numbers that you're seeing on the following slides are based on a two thousand and twenty-seven budget of that predicted six point five seven.

00:45:27 Niall Lobley: In the instance the county council was to approve a budget with a higher amount, then our capital budget would grow and the transition numbers would grow.

00:45:35 Niall Lobley: In a year where we see a lower budget, that the capital budget for transportation services would would shrink, and so the projected numbers in the funding model would shrink.

00:45:44 Niall Lobley: These numbers are based on a direct proportion back to that one point three six billion dollars of assets that we talked about a couple of slides ago.

00:45:51 Niall Lobley: Next slide, please.

00:45:54 Niall Lobley: This represents the basis of the funding model.

00:45:57 Niall Lobley: So if we look at the top line to start with, we can see that the total number of roads, kilometres of road that Grey County manages, is eight hundred and seventy.

00:46:06 Niall Lobley: As the CAO mentioned, the most of that is based on our rural road, seven hundred and fifty-five kilometres, with the balance in the semi-urban and the urban.

00:46:14 Niall Lobley: Combined, they have a replacement cost of one point three six billion.

00:46:18 Niall Lobley: That one point three six billion is generated from the numbers at the bottom right-hand side of this slide.

00:46:23 Niall Lobley: The price is per kilometre.

00:46:25 Niall Lobley: These are the prices embedded within our asset management plan.

00:46:28 Niall Lobley: These are an aggregate of a number of different construction types and construction issues on roads, but broadly speaking, rural roads have a construction value of one point three million per kilometre, semi-urban a construction value of two point seven five million per kilometre, and urban being the more expensive roads at three point four million per kilometre.

00:46:50 Niall Lobley: So, see each one of these is a group, and we've taken the highest values from our asset management plan to pay to each one of these kilometres of road.

00:47:01 Niall Lobley: Using these valuations, the same valuations on which we value our asset, our asset replacement costs, we valued the roads of all the roads that are being transferred to member municipalities, urban, semi-urban, and rural, where they're occurring.

00:47:15 Niall Lobley: On the basis of this, the valuation of proportion of the one point three six billion of the roads that we have is forty four million that will be transferred to Owen Sound as the replacement value of the roads.

00:47:27 Niall Lobley: That makes up about thirty point eight six percent of the total value of roads being transitioned.

00:47:33 Niall Lobley: That thirty point eight six percent now carries over to the next slide, please.

00:47:39 Niall Lobley: Here you can see the thirty point eight six at the top.

00:47:42 Niall Lobley: The thirty point eight six percent is the percentage, the proportion of the capital plan that County Council approves each year that we would be proposing to transition to Owen Sound to allow and enable the support of the transition of the roads that Owen Sound would be receiving.

00:47:59 Niall Lobley: In total, over the ten years, this is just a shade under ten million dollars, nine and a half million dollars.

00:48:05 Niall Lobley: That transitional funding is got an inflationary pricing case to it each year, so each year from 2027 onwards, yeah, 2027 no, so 2028 onwards.

00:48:16 Niall Lobley: So 2027 is based on the forecasted budget that County Council has seen. 2028 and onwards is inflated by two percent for cost of living, and then it's inflated further by an additional two point five five percent.

00:48:30 Niall Lobley: And that two point five five percent is the asset management levy that Grey County Council has that comes to the transportation services line.

00:48:39 Niall Lobley: So each year, and 2028 onwards is inflated.

00:48:42 Niall Lobley: Some municipalities see a tailing off at the back half of the ten-year plan, and that tailing off is for municipalities that are uploading rural roads to Grey County.

00:48:52 Niall Lobley: In the case of Owen Sound, as there are no roads being uploaded, the numbers continue to increase across the ten-year horizon.

00:49:00 Niall Lobley: The numbers in the first year are pro-rated, and the number in the last year is the balance of the prorated first year to make this a complete ten-year model.

00:49:10 Niall Lobley: Next slide, please.

00:49:14 Niall Lobley: This example, which comes from Hanover, just shows the difference a percentage can make in terms of the county tax base.

00:49:20 Niall Lobley: So, in a year where the county tax base is one percent more than anticipated, that would generate more money, and it would actually increase the numbers across the horizon.

00:49:29 Niall Lobley: In the years where the base, the percentage that county council budgets drop, the percentage will go go down, and that would have a corresponding trickle down effect across the entire ten year.

00:49:41 Niall Lobley: Each year, if you like, is a base year, and the base year is adjusted by the amount of money the county council approves for budget each year.

00:49:49 Niall Lobley: Should be noted that the budget is not specific to the road transfers.

00:49:52 Niall Lobley: The budget is a portion of the confirmed transportation services capital budget. and again, is proportional to the roads which are being transferred down.

00:50:01 Niall Lobley: So, regardless of the size of the the budget that transportation services have, member municipalities receiving urban downloads will receive the same percentage across the entire ten year forecast.

00:50:14 SPEAKER_112: Next slide, please.

00:50:18 SPEAKER_112: So, just to confirm, municipal funding amounts will be subject to some change year over year, and indeed, you've seen that in the iterations over the last few weeks, as County Council has seen these these numbers coming to coming to them.

00:50:30 Niall Lobley: So, municipal funding will change year to year based on the approved budget of County Council in each year.

00:50:36 Niall Lobley: The funding is driven by the transportation services capital budget as approved by County Council, and that budget, you will member municipalities receiving roads will receive a proportional amount of that capital fund based on their the proportion of road value that they are receiving.

00:50:53 Niall Lobley: The annual road replacement funding that the county uses is made up of three sources: levy, CCBF, and OCIF.

00:50:59 Niall Lobley: Very similar structures to member municipalities, and as the funding levels change within transportation services, there is a corresponding impact to the municipal transition funding.

00:51:09 Niall Lobley: As noted, the first year is prorated, and the balance that is prorated appears in the last year, which is why those two numbers are a little low, are lower than the balance.

00:51:17 Niall Lobley: Next slide, please.

00:51:22 Niall Lobley: So the CAO mentioned the long history that this process has had, and obviously we are now in the final stages of it.

00:51:31 Niall Lobley: So the task force met on February the fifth, and recommendations stemming from the task force meeting were that the staff begin the work to commencing a road transfer for the road transfers to occur later in two thousand and twenty six.

00:51:44 Niall Lobley: The first round.

00:51:45 Niall Lobley: Twenty twenty-six, the first round in July, the second round in October.

00:51:49 Niall Lobley: As well as that, the task force recommendations asked the staff begin the process of circulating the draft template agreement, which had been approved by the task force at that point in time.

00:52:00 Niall Lobley: Recommendations of task force were presented to a county committee of the whole on February the twelfth, at which point committee of the whole deferred considering the task force recommendations, pending staff being able to attend each one of the nine member municipal councils and share a presentation to update the process on road transfers.

00:52:20 Niall Lobley: We're anticipating taking the feedback from tonight's meeting as well as the other eight meetings that we've had to date to a committee meeting on March twenty-sixth, at which point county council will be reconsidering the deferred task force recommendations.

00:52:34 Niall Lobley: The task force recommendations stand.

00:52:36 Niall Lobley: Then in April, we will be working with member municipalities to continue discussions around the agreements which your staff already have, with an anticipation of presenting bylaws to confirm the dates of the transition of the roads, with those dates to occur in July, on July sixth, and a second round to occur in October.

00:52:55 Niall Lobley: The reason for two phases of road transfers is that the ones in October are currently under construction contracts, and so we need to wrap those construction contracts up prior to the transition.

00:53:05 Niall Lobley: Next slide, please.

00:53:07 Niall Lobley: The task force approved a template agreement, and that template agreement has now been populated with details for each one of the nine member municipalities and circulated with the details specific to that member municipality within it.

00:53:20 Niall Lobley: Made up of four key parts, the first part is a legal agreement, which basically establishes the terms and conditions of the agreement.

00:53:27 Niall Lobley: Then there are four schedules that follow on from it.

00:53:29 Niall Lobley: The first schedule is a detailed list of both maps and legal descriptions, physical legal descriptions, similar to the ones that the CAO provided earlier on about which road segments are being transitioned, to whom, from whom, and the roads, the length of roads, and the nature of the roads that are being transitioned.

00:53:48 Niall Lobley: The second schedule, Schedule B, is a financial arrangement, and that really reflects the 10 years transition funding that we've just shared in the last couple of slides.

00:53:57 Niall Lobley: And then the third schedule is a maintenance agreement.

00:54:00 Niall Lobley: This maintenance agreement will vary from one municipality to the next, and is reflective of the transition of operational services that may be required.

00:54:10 Niall Lobley: In some instances, a municipality may wish the county to continue to contract in to do services on its road, whether that be lit intersections, winter maintenance, or summer maintenance.

00:54:20 Niall Lobley: And so, where that's required, there will be a cost recovery agreement between the county and a member municipality for the services that are going one way or the other.

00:54:29 Niall Lobley: Next slide, please.

00:54:32 Niall Lobley: So March the twenty-sixth, the task force recommendations will go back before county council for consideration alongside of the report that will summarise the findings of the staff outreach to county member municipalities over the last week or so.

00:54:45 Niall Lobley: We will expect, and we will continue to work with staff to review the agreements, which are already within each one of nine member municipal staff hands.

00:54:53 Niall Lobley: And then the shift will be very much onto focus, if focusing on residents.

00:54:57 Niall Lobley: As noted, there are about three hundred properties who will see their street change from a county road to a municipal street, or municipal street back to a county road.

00:55:05 Niall Lobley: And so there is about three hundred people that are involved in that process, some of whom will experience road experience addresses.

00:55:12 Niall Lobley: The city of Owen Sound, no one will experience address changes because those that live on a county road are already municipally streeted.

00:55:19 Niall Lobley: Already municipally street addressed.

00:55:21 Niall Lobley: There will be a hotline which will be there to support municipal staff if they have any questions from any residents, and we will be dedicated to working with any residents that require support in helping to change those addresses.

00:55:31 Niall Lobley: And we'll also be working with Elections Ontario to ensure a smooth process for roll changes as needed for the September edition of the electoral roll.

00:55:41 Niall Lobley: Next slide, please.

00:55:44 Niall Lobley: Alongside of some of the administrative stuff in terms of property address changes, we'll also be working with the MTO and various different partners to change names on signs.

00:55:54 Niall Lobley: Working with Bell, Canada Post, and then packages needed, and looking to transition that the historical information.

00:56:01 Niall Lobley: So the roads you know in sound that the county is maintained and operated on.

00:56:04 Niall Lobley: We have detailed history on those roads when work was done, the design specs for that work when it was done, the agreements that we may have with service providers for our operating infrastructure within the right of way.

00:56:17 Niall Lobley: There are a number of agreements and things that we we will hold on our records, and the intent is that we will have a bundle of information of that detailed information to provide to municipalities.

00:56:27 Niall Lobley: In addition to the information they've already received, which is which is pertinent to the last few years.

00:56:34 Niall Lobley: County council has also made a commitment to ensure that we give clean title.

00:56:37 Niall Lobley: So roads are often not necessarily the cleanest when it comes to title for land, and that's because some bits of road never were not built where they should have been built.

00:56:47 Niall Lobley: Bits of road may exist on private property.

00:56:49 Niall Lobley: Private property may encroach on the private onto the right of way, and so the county will be working to address any title issues that might exist to ensure that member municipalities receiving roads are are supported by receiving clean title for those.

00:57:04 Niall Lobley: There'll be a bunch of work to do with transitioning traffic bylaws and speed bylaws, community safety zones, so on and so forth, to make sure the appropriate road authority has jurisdiction over those.

00:57:14 Niall Lobley: I will be updating any franchise agreements that may exist.

00:57:17 Niall Lobley: We'll be a body of work associated with updating GIS systems, Google Maps, and working to update asset management policies.

00:57:24 Niall Lobley: We'll also have it to be working on our asset management plan to transition out the roads that we're being transitioned to member municipalities and transition in any roads that are now part of the county's portfolio.

00:57:34 Niall Lobley: Next slide, please.

00:57:36 Niall Lobley: There are three key dates.

00:57:38 Niall Lobley: I'm going to add one to this list.

00:57:39 Niall Lobley: So March twenty-sixth, we return to County Council to give them an update.

00:57:42 Niall Lobley: July sixth, the first round of transfer is supposed to happen, and then October twenty-nine, twenty twenty-six, we're intending on transferring the balance of roads, which currently, as noted, have been going under construction.

00:57:55 Niall Lobley: Next slide, please.

00:57:56 Niall Lobley: So in conclusion, the intent of the road exchanges is to better align road ownership with the intended function of the roads.

00:58:03 Niall Lobley: The urban transfers will improve efficiency and responsiveness of local control.

00:58:07 Niall Lobley: Rural transfers to improve regional connectivity.

00:58:11 Niall Lobley: The county has established a ten-year transition fund made made up of a directly proportional amount of the approved capital plan for every single year over ten years, based on the asset value that is being transitioned.

00:58:23 Niall Lobley: We will continue to work with municipal staff on the transition over coming months.

00:58:27 Niall Lobley: Our county is available to help affected property owners with address changes, and the overall intent of this is to limit duplication of municipal efforts on the same sections of road and streamline municipal service delivery.

00:58:39 Niall Lobley: Next slide, please.

00:58:42 Niall Lobley: And with that, I will hand it back to you, Mayor Boddy, and myself, Randy, and members of the team would be more than happy to take any questions you may have.

00:58:48 Niall Lobley: Thank you very much.

00:58:52 Niall Lobley: Thank you, Councilor Farmer.

00:58:55 Niall Lobley: Councillor Farmer.

00:58:55 Jon Farmer: Thank you, through the mayor.

00:58:56 Jon Farmer: I've got a couple of questions, but to start off, I wonder if we might save some time.

00:59:00 Jon Farmer: I'm wondering if county staff have reviewed the specific concerns and suggestions in the letter that Owen Sound Council sent to the county, and if staff have had a chance to review and consider those concerns and suggestions.

00:59:15 Jon Farmer: I expect that a number of the comments and questions we might have tonight would have been reflected in both that letter and the supporting documents, as well as the meeting that you watched while you brushed your teeth.

00:59:27 Jon Farmer: And if some of those elephants could be addressed and cleared out of the room, that might help focus our subsequent questions.

00:59:38 Jon Farmer: Through you, Mayor Boddy.

00:59:41 Randy Scherzer: Thank you for that question, Councillor Farmer.

00:59:43 Randy Scherzer: With respect to obviously the staff report, very detailed staff report, some of the motion that was obviously passed by this council as well.

00:59:54 Randy Scherzer: We're still digesting that information, plus all the information that we've received from the eight member municipalities that we visited over the past few days.

01:00:03 Randy Scherzer: We are planning to bring forward responses to those comments and questions.

01:00:09 Randy Scherzer: We may need to reach back out to city staff.

01:00:11 Randy Scherzer: I noted that to the city manager just before the presentation today.

01:00:15 Randy Scherzer: We may need to reach back out to city staff if we have any clarification questions on that report.

01:00:20 Randy Scherzer: But we're still digesting it, and we're still going to, as noted, address that as part of our March 26 report back to County Committee.

01:00:27 Randy Scherzer: We'll of course share that information back through city staff that can be shared with this council in terms of some of those responses.

01:00:35 Randy Scherzer: But we're still digesting all the information that was received as part of this group, as well as the other eight member municipalities.

01:00:42 Jon Farmer: Following up, so question, and this might be a better question through the mayor to Niall about the calculation of the amount of money being transferred to all municipalities being downloaded roads.

01:01:00 Jon Farmer: I understand the elegant simplicity of taking a certain percentage of the budget and breaking that down by capital plan and asset management.

01:01:10 Jon Farmer: I'm wondering whether the per kilometer cost for the road categories included the discrete and expensive assets that those roads sometimes go over or down or around, like bridges and retaining walls.

01:01:26 Jon Farmer: Does that kilometer costing include those larger assets and their lifespans?

01:01:35 Jon Farmer: Through you, Mayor.

01:01:36 Randy Scherzer: Thank you again for that question.

01:01:37 Randy Scherzer: I'll maybe turn over to Niall for any further follow-up, as well as some of the staff that are with the transportation services, as well, with respect to that.

01:01:47 Randy Scherzer: So, as it relates to the per kilometer section of roads, so that those per kilometers that Niall noted in terms of three point four million for the urban sections, that is the replacement value cost as it relates to the county's infrastructure.

01:02:03 Randy Scherzer: So, noting what I mentioned earlier in terms of county looks after urban sections curb to curb, so the pavement surface essentially, a bit of the underground as well as storm pipes for the section that runs under the section of road, but not the stormwater system that those storm pipes connect to.

01:02:23 Randy Scherzer: That's that's usually with the local municipality.

01:02:25 Randy Scherzer: So, it does represent that portion, is my understanding.

01:02:30 Randy Scherzer: When we looked at, and this is again ongoing discussions with the task force for over last two to three years, we looked at different financial models in terms of trying to come up with what the task force felt was a level of fairness across the board in terms of the urban transfers as well as the rural road exchanges.

01:02:48 Randy Scherzer: As I noted earlier, when we looked at adding the bridge asset replacement value, what that actually did is created a negative effect for the municipalities that would just be receiving urban transfers.

01:03:03 Randy Scherzer: It actually decreased their amount overall, and that's just because a number of bridges that we have, and a number of those, eighty five percent is on rural roads in our county road network, and because those bridges, there is a number more bridges on those rural road sections overall that actually decrease.

01:03:15 Randy Scherzer: Overall, that actually decreased based on the financial formula.

01:03:18 Randy Scherzer: Again, might need to look for clarification with respect to that.

01:03:20 Randy Scherzer: But I see now nodding his head.

01:03:23 Randy Scherzer: So, as it relates to retaining walls, and that's a great question.

01:03:48 Randy Scherzer: And this is probably one example of where there's situations, especially in urban road sections, where the function of that retaining wall, from my understanding, comes into play in terms of how the breakout of costs is derived.

01:03:58 Randy Scherzer: And so because right now in the agreements, it's not clear as to who's responsible for the actual retaining walls.

01:04:00 Randy Scherzer: From my understanding, and again, I'm just going with information that I have.

01:04:01 Randy Scherzer: So when you look at a retaining wall piece, if it's serving more of a retaining wall for properties that are adjacent to a county road, or serving more of a retaining wall as it relates to some of the elements that are responsible from the local municipality's perspective, like a sidewalk, is function for that retaining wall.

01:04:16 Randy Scherzer: That percent then contribution for that replacement retaining wall rests more with the local municipality.

01:04:23 Randy Scherzer: If it's more serving a purpose as it relates to retaining wall for serving the purpose for the road section, the road surface itself, a larger percent goes to the county.

01:04:32 Randy Scherzer: So we try to work with the municipality to break out what those costs are, and trying to work out what makes the most sense from the function of that retaining wall.

01:04:40 Randy Scherzer: If that makes sense, again, this is where when you have two tiers responsible for one section of road, you have to work through those details in order to figure out who's responsible for what and who's budgeting what.

01:04:52 Randy Scherzer: And that's a great example of where and it's one piece of that.

01:04:55 Randy Scherzer: As noted, when we're working through trying to figure out costings for those projects, the timing for when those projects should be replaced for the various assets in that road section, it gets complex.

01:05:07 Randy Scherzer: And that's where I think the road task force and county council was looking at if it's under one owner, what makes the most sense in terms of ownership.

01:05:16 Randy Scherzer: And when you come into looking at urban sections, the road task force and county council are recommending, anyways, that that ownership likely makes the most sense for local municipalities, local control again for to be able to look after and respond to community needs.

01:05:26 Randy Scherzer: Through the mayor, the general principle makes sense to me.

01:05:29 SPEAKER_142: I think how the cost breaks down, and we talk about assets, but really they're just all liabilities.

01:05:37 Jon Farmer: And that's, I think, where the most concern was that I heard.

01:05:42 Jon Farmer: And so I'm curious: is it acknowledging that the county is still and staff are still digesting information from the City of Owen Sound report?

01:05:52 Jon Farmer: I'm just looking for some clarity.

01:06:03 Jon Farmer: Is it true that not all of the asset condition ratings are up to date or available?

01:06:09 Jon Farmer: And specifically for projects that were deferred, like the section of Gray Road Five with a prominent retaining wall above Harrison Park, is the cost of those cancelled or deferred projects that were to the point of being detailed where County Council could say, "No, we're not going to do it because it's too expensive"?

01:06:34 Jon Farmer: Are those costs factored into the transfers as well, or only costs that were actively on the transportation services work plan, capital budget, improvement plan for the next ten years?

01:06:44 Jon Farmer: Kind of two questions.

01:06:51 Jon Farmer: The first one's really easy.

01:06:53 Jon Farmer: Is it true or yeah, is it?

01:06:54 Jon Farmer: accurate to say that there is missing information about assets and then how do cancelled projects play into that calculation?

01:07:01 Jon Farmer: I think no one wants to answer that one.

01:07:03 Jon Farmer: Go ahead now.

01:07:04 Jon Farmer: Oh, there we go.

01:07:10 Niall Lobley: Through through your mail body, I'm I'm quite happy to defer to to the CAO and and and look to staff to support me in trying to answer that question.

01:07:20 Niall Lobley: Great county staff have diligently undertaken the requirements under legislation such as minimum maintenance standards and various different other pieces of legislation such as the OSM guidelines, and the data that we hold has been transitioned to staff.

01:07:30 Niall Lobley: It is our understanding that our asset management data is up to date and has been provided in such a form.

01:07:54 Niall Lobley: As the CAO mentioned, the Net mentioned that that some work is complex, and so the specific mention of road that you just you just highlighted, there is work which the county is currently undergoing in terms of geotechnical background studies to help inform future potential works on on the Harrison Park Hill, and the deferred projects.

01:08:03 Niall Lobley: I think the one thing that we note in terms of the deferred projects, and we do need to go through the list of questions from from the City of Owen Sound in some detail, but many of those deferred projects have been deferred because they're simply not required at this point in time, because those projects are driven by development, development which hasn't yet occurred, and so what the county does in terms of trying to balance that ten year plan is try to look realistically at the projects that can be achieved across the ten years, and some of those projects are reliant on development occurring, and if it's not realistic that the development that could drive those projects is required in ten years. then those projects are pushed beyond the ten-year bracket.

01:08:38 Niall Lobley: That doesn't necessarily mean that they're they're less funded than they have been previously.

01:08:43 Niall Lobley: The only funding that we have to bring to the table is the funding which county council approves as part of our capital plan, which is done on a year-to-year basis.

01:08:57 Niall Lobley: So the year-to-year funding is very reflective of the projects that can be achieved within the year.

01:09:02 Niall Lobley: And and again, as we say, some of the deferred projects that were highlighted to to council in the discussions over the last couple of weeks deferred projects because they're they're reliant on growth, which isn't realistically happening in the next short period of time.

01:09:12 Niall Lobley: So it's been deferred for those reasons.

01:09:14 Niall Lobley: So the great the other thing I'd say on the the Harrison Park Hill in regards to that project is city staff and county staff have come together to discuss that project and and and today the cost estimates that have been coming in. have been beyond both the city staff and county council county staff staff comfort level to proceed with that project.

01:09:42 Niall Lobley: They just don't believe they they as yet reflect what is needed.

01:09:49 Ian Boddy: Did that clarify?

01:09:50 Ian Boddy: Did that answer your question?

01:09:51 Ian Boddy: Your questions seem to be.

01:09:52 Ian Boddy: There's still information to be gathered.

01:09:54 Ian Boddy: I'm not sure that answered.

01:09:55 Ian Boddy: I just want to be clear that your question got answered.

01:09:58 Ian Boddy: Thank you, through the mayor.

01:09:59 Jon Farmer: My I think my questions were answered.

01:10:01 Jon Farmer: If I'm correct in my understanding, that that's county staff have have provided all the information that they have, and all the information is up to date.

01:10:12 Jon Farmer: Which I'll just note is not the information that we got at our last meeting, but also that for deferred projects or cancelled projects, such as the the Harrison Park Hill section of Gray Road Five, that until development would that a project like that would be cancelled if there wasn't development that would make it worthwhile, regardless of the deteriorating condition of that asset, is what I'm taking away from from that response.

01:10:39 Jon Farmer: I'm happy to be corrected.

01:10:42 Jon Farmer: Sound accurate?

01:10:44 Jon Farmer: Through you, Mayor.

01:10:46 Randy Scherzer: Clarification: The first one, Niles, correct in terms of the information that we have currently has been provided to the city staff with respect to the current conditions of of the various assets.

01:10:56 Randy Scherzer: We did identify that there was a bridge that was missed in their most recent update with respect to that, and so that has been, I think, now done, completed, and not completed yet.

01:11:06 Randy Scherzer: Coming next cycle.

01:11:07 Randy Scherzer: So there was one bridge that was was missed and that was flagged.

01:11:14 Randy Scherzer: On back to the again the Harrison Park project, again this is similar to other projects that we've noted in terms of trying to coordinate all the required works and assets that need to be replaced within that road section, and we recognize both between between the county and the city there needs to be some further work in terms of the geotechnical and from a design perspective of what makes the most sense for that section of road, recognizing that we have currently have assets to be replaced in terms of the road surface, probably a share on the retaining wall, whatever that share needs to be worked out, and then figuring out what what other works will be required in terms of underground works and infrastructure works that the city may require as well, trying to balance all that out with as now indicated with the county county portion of the budget and the city's portion of the budget, and trying to time that. is is where some of the challenges we find.

01:12:18 Randy Scherzer: But again, we're happy to work with city staff and this council to look at what makes the most sense.

01:12:24 Randy Scherzer: As Niall indicated, we wanted to still advance some at least some of the geotechnical work to try to get some answers in terms of what what this could look like in terms of solutions, and then try to work out obviously with the city what the what the most most solutions most cost-effective solutions would work for both county and city with respect to that project.

01:12:42 Randy Scherzer: Again, assuming that the roads remain as as is for the time being.

01:12:47 Randy Scherzer: Thanks.

01:12:47 Randy Scherzer: Do you have a hand up?

01:12:50 Randy Scherzer: Yeah.

01:12:51 Randy Scherzer: Thank you, Worship.

01:13:08 Travis Dodd: But I'm glad to hear that you you watched the meeting this morning while you're brushing your teeth, because it would have been made things a lot more entertaining.

01:13:18 Travis Dodd: I'm going to go back to Harrison Park Hill because I think that's a that's great that it's been complicated or complex dealing with two different tiers of trying. to figure out how to do it, the road has a rating of 14.

01:13:20 Travis Dodd: It's not has nothing to do with upcoming development.

01:13:21 Travis Dodd: That that that's an issue, and we talk about replacement cost and the lifespan on the asset.

01:13:23 Travis Dodd: And it's great.

01:13:24 Travis Dodd: There's 1.36 billion dollars of total county assets.

01:13:41 Travis Dodd: If that needs to be done on June 3rd after the transition occurs, your 10 million dollars is gone in year one, maybe year two, right?

01:13:50 Travis Dodd: So the that's the part with the replacement cost of all of this assets.

01:13:52 Travis Dodd: If you're spreading it over a 10-year period, that one project, if the lifespan is less than three years, there's no way the municipality would ever be able to, with our own five-year capital, plan that out properly, or effectively, or affordably, as those keywords that we keep hearing.

01:13:56 Travis Dodd: So that's for me when we talk about when you're looking at the blanket urban. price per kilometer, with conditions considered of what you're providing to your lower tier partner, I've heard it.

01:14:09 Travis Dodd: I watched the town of Blue Mountains.

01:14:11 Travis Dodd: We heard that word partnership.

01:14:13 Travis Dodd: I know that's we try to strive for it, the county.

01:14:16 Travis Dodd: But for me, all the other stuff makes sense.

01:14:19 Travis Dodd: That the ideology of it makes sense.

01:14:22 Travis Dodd: It's the cost, ten million dollars, which has been ten million, nine point two.

01:14:27 Travis Dodd: Now it's nine point five.

01:14:28 Travis Dodd: That funding model has changed in three different reports I've seen, or slideshows, presentations.

01:14:34 Travis Dodd: So for me, it's just about if we know there's a critical asset that needs to be replaced, no matter the complexities of it, downloading that to the single tier I think is a challenge.

01:14:43 Travis Dodd: Knowing that that has been on the capital budgets of the county and has been deferred for various reasons.

01:14:51 Travis Dodd: I know Ninth Avenue is getting done, so you're not going to shut off both corridors coming north.

01:14:56 Travis Dodd: And there I understand that, but that still is a project that you know.

01:15:01 Travis Dodd: The roof is leaking in your house.

01:15:03 Travis Dodd: You still have the ownership to replace the roof.

01:15:05 Travis Dodd: So, for me, that's the biggest component.

01:15:09 Travis Dodd: I understand that the other components of it, but I just don't.

01:15:13 Travis Dodd: When you're doing that calculation, has condition been considered into that?

01:15:21 Randy Scherzer: Through you, Mayor, and I may look to staff in terms of what the PCI is that we have with respect to that section of road, because I know there is a bit of a discrepancy in terms of the PCI rating as it relates to that at least the road section through that section of road.

01:15:34 Randy Scherzer: So maybe while staff are looking at that, I'll try to answer some of those questions with respect to the condition of the asset.

01:15:43 Randy Scherzer: That's what we're hearing from some of the other members.

01:15:47 Randy Scherzer: We're hearing from some of the other member municipalities as well.

01:16:14 Randy Scherzer: There's certain assets where I think some of the condition ratings that we have shared with city staff and in terms of the information that we have that's available raises questions in terms of certain assets along those road sections, whether it's a bridge asset, whether in this case, like you said, the Harrison Park Hill and the road sections.

01:16:24 Randy Scherzer: So, as noted, there needs to be some further geotechnical work and some design work to understand what the cost of that is.

01:16:25 Randy Scherzer: We've had discussions as it relates to some of the report that's been provided.

01:16:27 Randy Scherzer: We want to still advance that work and understand what that then entails.

01:16:32 Randy Scherzer: We've heard loud and clear through the staff report as well as through the comments from the last meeting and this meeting that that remains a concern for both city staff and council.

01:16:46 Randy Scherzer: I don't know.

01:16:47 Randy Scherzer: I don't have the solutions at this stage, but we will reflect that concern, no doubt, going to the report back to county council with potentially some options in terms of considerations for county council to consider.

01:16:58 Randy Scherzer: And that's all I can commit to at this stage, because at the end of the day, it'll be county council making some of those decisions as based on the comments and concerns that we've heard back from member municipalities.

01:17:12 Travis Dodd: Thank you, Worship, and I appreciate that.

01:17:14 Travis Dodd: I appreciate the honesty in it, and I think that's for me personally.

01:17:18 Travis Dodd: You know, I'm not going to give you anyone a lecture.

01:17:21 Travis Dodd: Everyone hears me lecture all the time, so I'm not going to do that.

01:17:24 Travis Dodd: I just feel there was a little bit of a disconnect and communication on this portion compared to other times we've had dealings with the county on different services, planning, for example.

01:17:34 Travis Dodd: Very open, very transparent.

01:17:36 Travis Dodd: I note that.

01:17:36 Travis Dodd: Transparent.

01:17:52 Travis Dodd: I know that you said you had eight open meetings and 24 meetings of council, but I've also heard members of county staff and members of county council say they're not looking for feedback from lower tiers.

01:18:02 Travis Dodd: So it sends a kind of a conflicting message to us of saying, do you want to hear our perspective or do you not want to hear a perspective?

01:18:04 Travis Dodd: So that for me, I know, I just didn't.

01:18:05 Travis Dodd: That has opened up this can of saying, well, okay, do you want our perspective or not?

01:18:18 Travis Dodd: And then when we see that, okay, we're going to do certain projects or we're downloading certain assets without taking into consideration of what's the municipality going to do?

01:18:28 Travis Dodd: And the reason I say that, we are just like no different than you.

01:18:29 Travis Dodd: We do a five year capital plan.

01:18:31 Travis Dodd: I can tell you that Harrison Park needs to be offloaded and downloaded.

01:18:33 Travis Dodd: The city and the city's going to do it all.

01:18:34 Travis Dodd: That's going to mess up five years of our planning of saying what are we deferring, what's getting kicked out and putting back on our unfunded budget?

01:18:36 Travis Dodd: And I don't think that is fair for our process.

01:18:38 Travis Dodd: I think that is fair for our process that we do either.

01:18:40 Travis Dodd: So I think when as we move forward, and I've been a huge advocate about working better with the county and working on regionalization of services that's effective and efficient.

01:18:43 Travis Dodd: I just don't think the messaging on this was the best it could have been, especially considering the fact of you know we have our own memorandum of understanding of when we joined the county regarding roads as a component of that agreement.

01:18:57 Travis Dodd: But again, that wasn't brought back into consideration.

01:19:01 Travis Dodd: If county council would have approved this two weeks ago, we wouldn't have this discussion.

01:19:05 Travis Dodd: So that's where I find the biggest light would be, I think, on this side, is you know it's a big thing that the county is doing, and I don't like.

01:19:15 Travis Dodd: I said I don't disagree with the fact of it, the ideology, the handling of the financials of it, and I can see the points that you're providing.

01:19:23 Travis Dodd: See the point that you're providing.

01:19:25 Christopher Stevens: Just doesn't seem fair for lower tiers.

01:19:34 Christopher Stevens: Thanks, Councillor Merton.

01:19:34 Carol Merton: Through you, Mayor, I want to first of all thank the county for coming and doing the presentation.

01:19:41 Carol Merton: My comments echo Councillor Dodd's.

01:19:44 Carol Merton: We know there is a power imbalance.

01:19:48 Carol Merton: The upper tier has the power to download onto the lower tier, and we recognize that the spirit of collaboration exists.

01:20:00 Carol Merton: But at this point, as I sit here listening to you represent the county and the county's budget and the concerns, I represent the municipality of Owen Sound.

01:20:12 Carol Merton: You talk about a fair formula that you've worked out a fair formula, and I think you can tell by our previous meeting, we're not seeing it quite the same way.

01:20:23 Carol Merton: In the principle of fairness, you also acknowledge that you know you don't have enough money to transfer what should happen to be spent on the urban roads.

01:20:38 Carol Merton: So not only is this an urban road transfer for me sitting here, it feels as if it is a debt download where our municipality will have to face some tough decisions about what we can do and not do in the future around our capital assets.

01:20:58 Carol Merton: My question is, am I hearing you correctly when you say the financials may not be your final offer to us as presented this evening?

01:21:13 Randy Scherzer: Pass that to you, Randy.

01:21:16 Randy Scherzer: Through you, Mayor, and thank you for that question, Councillor Merton.

01:21:20 Randy Scherzer: Again, all I can do is take the information that we're hearing back from not just this council and city staff, but also the other eight member municipalities.

01:21:31 Randy Scherzer: We've committed to taking that information, bringing that back to County Council for consideration for March twenty-six.

01:21:37 Randy Scherzer: As we've been going through in between meetings, we are working on a staff report.

01:21:42 Randy Scherzer: And in between those meetings, we are having some further conversations internally, and we are planning to bring forward potential options for Council's consideration in order to address some of the comments and questions we've heard.

01:21:56 Randy Scherzer: At the end of the day, it'll be County Council that will make those decisions in terms of how to move forward.

01:22:01 Randy Scherzer: But we are trying to respect some of the comments and questions we've heard throughout the various council meetings, and bring forward potential options for County Council's consideration.

01:22:10 Randy Scherzer: Thank you.

01:22:14 Ian Boddy: Nothing further, Councillor Merton.

01:22:17 Ian Boddy: No, thank you.

01:22:18 Ian Boddy: Thanks.

01:22:19 Ian Boddy: Looking this way.

01:22:19 Ian Boddy: Go ahead, Councillor Hamley.

01:22:22 Brock Hamley: So your first slide it says transfer roads serving through traffic and regional functions to Grey County.

01:22:31 Brock Hamley: That's like one of the key principles.

01:22:34 Brock Hamley: So I'm going to pick on you, but when you're brushing your teeth in the morning, there's 22,000 people in Owen Sound, and by the time you make it to the county building, there's 40,000 people in Owen Sound, and they're coming from all over Grey County.

01:22:49 Brock Hamley: Your proposal makes Owen Sound and Hanover the only two municipalities in Grey County without a single county road.

01:23:00 Brock Hamley: So effectively, what you're saying in all of this is that we should have 20,000 people traveling through Owen Sound, and we should just deal with it, and the county should have no county roads and have no responsibility with that.

01:23:17 Brock Hamley: I just, you know, it does not add up.

01:23:21 Brock Hamley: And you're just the messenger.

01:23:23 Brock Hamley: I get that, but please take that message back.

01:23:30 Brock Hamley: Others, go ahead.

01:23:33 Melanie Koepke: Thank you, through you, Mayor.

01:23:35 Melanie Koepke: If you watch the meeting, you probably understand that I made myself crystal clear on where I stand on this, and all we are looking for is fairness, as the other councilors have said.

01:23:45 Melanie Koepke: There has to be consideration to the condition ratings of what is being downloaded, and I'm looking for further information on.

01:23:55 Melanie Koepke: And you mentioned earlier about the bridges not being taken into consideration because of the way that you're looking at the formula.

01:24:03 Melanie Koepke: If we do do two bridges out of 85, that it would end up as a negative for us.

01:24:09 Melanie Koepke: But that doesn't calculate on our end.

01:24:12 Melanie Koepke: We're still taking on over six million dollars in assets that we don't know the condition, and we're going to have to fix it at some point.

01:24:22 Melanie Koepke: And 11 traffic signals.

01:24:24 Melanie Koepke: Has there been any indication for that in the funding formula?

01:24:28 Melanie Koepke: I really really struggle with the transition funding in the October 24 report that says the better way to do it is just to take the percentage of the road and just divide it amongst how much road you're getting, because it favored municipalities that, if you did it the other way, it would favor municipalities with older infrastructure.

01:24:53 Melanie Koepke: Well, that doesn't make any sense.

01:24:55 Melanie Koepke: Like, so in the end, what you're doing is you're handing over the older infrastructure without the funding to help fix it.

01:25:01 Melanie Koepke: You know that you have the one eight million that was in the capital budget for Grey Road Five, and you pulled it, and it has to come back.

01:25:11 Melanie Koepke: If you're downloading the road to us, it's only fair that you take consideration to those immediate capital needs for the infrastructure that's coming to us.

01:25:21 Melanie Koepke: Otherwise, this is really unfair that you're saddling Owen Sound taxpayers with not only taking on 80 million dollars worth of roads, but then you're uploading all of these rural roads and then doing 36 million dollars of capital on those roads.

01:25:38 Melanie Koepke: That you're taking away the responsibility from those other municipalities, I don't understand how that computes and sounds fair.

01:25:49 Randy Scherzer: Thank you, through you, Mayor, and again, thank you for your comments, Councilmember.

01:25:56 Randy Scherzer: With respect to again the valuations, those are some of the things that we're still digesting in terms of some of the numbers that were in the city staff report, and some of the numbers that we as we noted we presented here today.

01:26:07 Randy Scherzer: And if there's gaps within those numbers, trying to understand what those gaps are, hence the question or the comment to the City Manager earlier today, in terms of we may have to have some further dialogue in terms of just understand some of those maybe where those gaps may lie.

01:26:22 Randy Scherzer: So again, we're committed to bringing that information back based on the comments and concerns that we've heard through city staff and council to County Council for consideration, as well as some potential options for consideration with respect to those questions and comments we've heard.

01:26:45 SPEAKER_015: I don't really have a lot further, other than some questions that I would ask our own staff.

01:26:50 SPEAKER_015: Other than I certainly agree with my colleagues on the fairness question, the financial question, and just all of that.

01:26:59 SPEAKER_015: So we're certainly looking forward to answers to those.

01:27:03 Good: Deputy Mayor Greig, well, I'll go through a few things in a hurry.

01:27:07 Good: My first summer as a councilor, Grey County and Owen Sound was undertaking road reconstruction between the wastewater treatment plant and the water treatment plant on Grey Road 15.

01:27:16 Good: I went and stood in the driveway with what must have been eight to ten of us that day, for a resident who could not get a definitive answer on what he could do with his driveway, because he felt he was getting differing opinions and comments from the county, differing comments from the city.

01:27:33 Good: The consulting engineer on the project was there, and we came to a resolution for that individual who has a home-based business and still lives there.

01:27:44 Good: I don't know if you would like to comment on the amount of work in the last couple years that went on as we've had Ninth Street and Sixth Street, Ninth Avenue East.

01:27:53 Good: These projects, Legion Corner last year had new signalization.

01:28:00 Good: St. Mary's Secondary School leaps right out for the amount of time that it has drawn from both city staff and the county trying to come to resolutions on some of these road boundaries.

01:28:14 Good: We have instances in the city here where one individual with a commercial enterprise.

01:28:20 Good: One individual, the commercial enterprise, wanted to add a gazebo on his property, and then we, at the city, overlaid the county official plan because it's on an adjoining county road.

01:28:28 Good: So then he's asked for a road widening.

01:28:31 Good: So there is a significant part of this where I think the bureaucracy at work really does need to be spoken to.

01:28:39 Good: I'm the first one to pursue fairness, and note that our intentions, the county was, we're getting the information now that I think we were hoping to get over the last ten months.

01:28:51 Good: It just is occurring now, and some of us were under the perception that it would have been occurring for many months and then coming back.

01:28:58 Good: So this is good, but even in 2022, we did the water treatment plant to the northern edge, not quite the northern edge of the city, but servicing Skydive.

01:29:11 Good: But servicing SkyDev, Grey Road 15, the tender came in at 3.

01:29:15 Good: The tender came in at 2.2 million dollar allocation for the county.

01:29:20 Good: It was budgeted a 3.2 million dollar allocation for the county.

01:29:24 Good: The actual costs then for that 1.47 kilometers stretch of road, for the county was 1.7 million dollars.

01:29:32 Good: I think it was.

01:29:33 Good: Got it in my notes.

01:29:36 Good: We've got 2.7 million dollars noted for semi-urban roads, 3.4 million for urban.

01:29:42 Good: I'm super concerned with just ensuring that the fairness is there and that the numbers are all verified, and we work together to make sure the numbers are exact.

01:29:52 Good: A week ago, I saw a report: three-lane road in Owen Sound, two point seven nine kilometers.

01:29:59 Good: I think of it.

01:30:00 Good: I know there's three-lane road going up Sixth Street East, Hill to Ninth Avenue, but I'm befuddled as to where the rest of that is.

01:30:06 Good: So, I'm just hopeful that county staff and city staff will iron out all the exact details to get rid of any questions that may still exist, and that the best information can go forward for final decision making.

01:30:20 Good: But there is certainly a part two here, and that is the customer service bureaucratic component of what does occur in today's landscape.

01:30:29 Good: Thanks, sir Andy.

01:30:33 Ian Boddy: I think we get the why, and to me the why makes sense.

01:30:36 Ian Boddy: I got that.

01:30:36 Ian Boddy: I think Travis mentioned the lack of communication, and you know we go back to last April that we're going to go negotiate with the lower tiers, and we didn't.

01:30:48 Ian Boddy: Now we're here in March, eleven months later, with a hurry up and finish this because we want to transfer in July, which doesn't give us enough time.

01:30:58 Ian Boddy: I looked at the video from Town of Blue, West Grey, Grey Highlands.

01:31:09 Ian Boddy: Heard from Sue at Hanover, so I kind of know that you're getting the same questions, the same concerns all over.

01:31:15 Ian Boddy: And I think it's important that we do it right, not necessarily in a hurry.

01:31:21 Ian Boddy: If it's sort of a false deadline or a deadline we've created ourselves that maybe isn't doesn't have to be followed.

01:31:34 Ian Boddy: When I hear of spending extra costs to go door to door and start do mailers to try and get things done in time for the election, thinking that's that's our own foot that we shot, that we didn't need to, or that we don't need to, and maybe we're trying to rush this when we really don't need to, but some things that jump out for me, Councillor Middlebro's comment about having everything at a standard level of quality for my poor words I'm not an engineer before they're transferred I think is something that could be and should be looked at.

01:31:59 Ian Boddy: Certainly we're talking about coming up with money from levy from CCBF and OSCIF.

01:32:20 Ian Boddy: However, there has to be some capital reserves held by the county that would be held for these roads that aren't there.

01:32:27 Ian Boddy: Certainly DC reserves that haven't been there.

01:32:30 Ian Boddy: I think it's this is a handover complaint as well as ours.

01:32:35 Ian Boddy: But the number of streetlights that are being downloaded when I first went on a committee in two thousand and eight I think there was one hundred and twenty-five to two hundred and fifty per set of traffic lights in an intersection.

01:32:44 Ian Boddy: Now I think we're two fifty to three fifty, just just or more insane.

01:32:46 Ian Boddy: But there's eleven set of lights there that aren't being taken into account.

01:32:48 Ian Boddy: I think those things have to be taken into account to come up with something that's fair.

01:33:02 Ian Boddy: You've already heard, and I think everybody around the table feels the same way on the cemetery hill, as being something that isn't in good quality to be handing off or good good shape.

01:33:11 Ian Boddy: But I but I wonder about capital reserves.

01:33:13 Ian Boddy: I wonder about DC reserves.

01:33:22 Ian Boddy: Looking at those, I wonder about timeline, and I wonder about looking at the actual assets that we're getting to try and make it a little more fair and come back with whatever, if if that makes sense.

01:33:31 Ian Boddy: And I don't know if anyone wants to argue with me on that.

01:33:33 Ian Boddy: No, no, he doesn't want to argue with me.

01:33:34 Ian Boddy: Thanks.

01:33:35 Ian Boddy: Go ahead.

01:33:42 Randy Scherzer: Thank you, Mayor Boddy, and you're correct in terms of similar comments that we've heard from other member municipalities, terms of timelines.

01:33:53 Randy Scherzer: We've had questions around the development charges reserve, so those are the things that again we're looking into as we speak.

01:34:00 Randy Scherzer: We'll be providing some further information with respect to that back to County Council for consideration for some of these elements.

01:34:07 Randy Scherzer: Again, we're happy to work with city staff, other member municipal staff, and member councils to make sure we're getting this right.

01:34:15 Randy Scherzer: Good.

01:34:15 Randy Scherzer: I want to thank you and everyone that came in now.

01:34:17 Ian Boddy: Now that didn't come in, but participated.

01:34:18 Ian Boddy: Thank you, and both engineers.

01:34:23 Ian Boddy: Thanks for coming in and providing us with this information.

01:34:28 Ian Boddy: Again, you got a report last week and watched the meeting, so you kind of you've got a feel for it.

01:34:32 Ian Boddy: So. thank you again.

01:34:33 Ian Boddy: I turned it back off instead of on.

01:34:35 Ian Boddy: Next on our agenda is a public forum, and I'm not seeing anyone rushing to the microphone too quickly.

01:34:37 Ian Boddy: There was somebody here earlier that unfortunately left.

01:34:44 Ian Boddy: Correspondence received for which direction of council is required at number nine.

01:34:50 Ian Boddy: I believe there is something there, and we will need a motion to receive it.

01:34:55 Ian Boddy: It is our audit service plan.

01:34:59 Ian Boddy: Kate, anything you want to add to that before we move?

01:35:03 Ian Boddy: To your worship, no. This is a standard communication that the auditors provide to the finance committee, and in this case, that's all of council.

01:35:23 SPEAKER_113: Just letting them know about the terms of the engagement. and they've also attached for your reference a management letter.

01:35:30 SPEAKER_113: But that is really our obligations as staff and what we do for the audit.

01:35:32 SPEAKER_113: So it really is just for your information.

01:35:34 SPEAKER_113: You got the motion there.

01:35:35 SPEAKER_113: Go ahead.

01:35:35 SPEAKER_020: Thank you, Worship.

01:35:35 SPEAKER_020: I would move the piece of correspondence, item nine A. And all in favor?

01:35:37 SPEAKER_020: That's carried on the screen.

01:35:38 SPEAKER_020: Carol is voting in favor.

01:35:39 SPEAKER_020: It's carried.

01:35:39 SPEAKER_020: To number ten, update report from Deputy Mayor Greig.

01:35:44 SPEAKER_020: With regard to or from Grey County Council.

01:36:04 Good: Make to note for council that County Council received an annual update from Jane Skaniac of Bruce Power.

01:36:10 Good: In two thousand twenty-five, Bruce Power provided twenty-four percent of Ontario's electricity.

01:36:15 Good: This is down about six percent due to the outages for the major component replacement.

01:36:28 Good: The major component replacements for units three and four, unit three returns to service this year, and unit four began a three-year outage in February of two thousand twenty-five.

01:36:38 Good: The installation of a new isotope production system in unit six further increased production capacity of lutetium one seventy-seven.

01:36:40 Good: And Bruce Power completed the planning phase of the Bruce C expansion in August of two thousand twenty-five, moving into the impact statement phase.

01:36:41 Good: This phase would be followed by the impact assessment phase prior to the decision-making phases.

01:36:43 Good: Council agreed a development charges update will occur in two thousand twenty-seven with the next council.

01:36:56 Good: Hampson Consulting was hired in two thousand twenty-five to prepare the new bylaw, utilizing two thousand twenty-six to prepare the draft for two thousand twenty-seven consideration allows time for capital requirement considerations attributable to road exchanges, recognizes potential hesitancies of outgoing councils to make municipal financing decisions binding the next council, and will respond to potential changes to the Development Charges Act being considered by the province in the spring legislature sitting.

01:37:24 Good: Council received a report in the two thousand twenty six growth management strategy.

01:37:28 Good: This forecast work in accordance is required in accordance with the Ministry of Finance projections, considering at this time massive growth in the county.

01:37:39 Good: However, updated every five years, it is indicated by staff that all municipalities currently have adequately or an adequate supply of designated lands to support the population projection, acknowledging the boundary change and expansion of Hanover occurs.

01:37:57 Good: An important component of this report is to note the secondary settlement areas, and inland lakes shoreline settlement areas.

01:38:14 Good: Lines settlement areas, which are privately partially or partially serviced, have been included in the net land supply together with the primary settlement areas, which are fully serviced.

01:38:24 Good: The provincial policy statement and the county official plan direct most new growth to fully serviced settlement areas, and where growth within fully serviced settlement areas outpaces growth in secondary areas, municipalities still may need to consider expansions to their primary settlement areas.

01:38:53 Good: The PPS requires planning authorities maintain designated lands to accommodate a minimum of fifteen years of residential development with servicing capacities sufficient to provide at least a three-year supply of residential units on such appropriate and zoned lands.

01:39:02 Good: Within minutes, within minutes of the community services committee adopted by council was an update to the ten-year housing and homelessness plan.

01:39:04 Good: The plan prioritizes promoting and supporting a collaborative housing and homelessness system, promoting equity in access to housing, maintaining and growing housing stock which is sustainable and responsive to the needs of various county communities, promoting and supporting local housing opportunities and providing high quality service.

01:39:20 Good: Strategies include create new affordable and supportive housing, support a vibrant community housing sector, and the third strategy to strengthen housing and homelessness system to reduce chronic homelessness.

01:39:33 Good: And council received for information the short term housing and homelessness update.

01:39:38 Good: During two thousand twenty five, the motel supported four hundred twenty five unique individuals, including fifty nine children and under, or fifty nine children under sixteen.

01:39:47 Good: I think it's time for a water break.

01:39:59 Good: The four hundred and twenty-five increased from three hundred and eighty-eight in two thousand twenty-four, albeit the first full year of the resource.

01:40:06 Good: Nine thousand three hundred twenty-four nights of accommodation, up from eight thousand three hundred fifteen in two thousand twenty-four, were provided, and the average length of stay increased to twenty-five nights from twenty-one per household.

01:40:19 Good: Program inflow was tracked, indicating two hundred ninety-eight households were from Owen Sound, fifty-two from Hanover, and approximately a dozen or less from other municipalities.

01:40:28 Good: Operating costs decreased to forty-nine dollars nightly from fifty-seven dollars and seventy-two cents year over year.

01:40:37 Good: One hundred twenty-six households moved directly to housing from the program, ninety-seven of whom were connected to housing directly in the private market.

01:40:44 Good: Infrastructure Canada reports thirty.

01:40:46 Good: Canada reports 35 on average outflow to housing from emergency shelter, which is lower than the county's 41 last year.

01:40:55 Good: County staff implement diversion supports, avoiding the need for the emergency housing, leveraging support from family, friends, or community resources.

01:41:05 Good: In 2025, staff managed diversion options for 71 households, with only 21 households proceeding to access the short-term program.

01:41:14 Good: At year end, total individuals experiencing homelessness on the Grey by names list was 156, down from 177 at the end of 2024.

01:41:24 Good: During the year, 143 households moved from the by names list into a housing option, and 68 households returned to homelessness.

01:41:35 Good: Outcomes of the housing first case management pilot system in three months has not had a client return to homelessness.

01:41:44 Good: And as part of minutes approved from Planning Committee, staff are moving towards Phase Four of the Green Development Standards Program.

01:41:50 Good: Staff, supported by a research team from Georgian College's Research and Innovation Department and Sustainable Waterloo Region, will be collecting input from construction and development industry stakeholders on preliminary program components, and to prioritize recommendations to inform the final report, anticipated later in two thousand twenty-six.

01:42:00 Good: I welcome any questions and request Council's endorsement of the verbal report.

01:42:02 Good: Any questions?

01:42:02 Good: Seeing none.

01:42:02 Good: We'll call the question.

01:42:03 Good: All in favor?

01:42:04 Good: That is carried with both voting on screen.

01:42:08 Good: Um.

01:42:08 Good: There is a ton of really good information in that on what's going on in people.

01:42:14 Ian Boddy: Which is which is good.

01:42:19 Ian Boddy: Go to Ms. Bloomfield with regard to consent agenda.

01:42:42 Briana Bloomfield: Through your worship, on the consent agenda this evening is a report on a rural Ontario development program grant, minutes for receipt from the police board, business licenses were issued to Wonderlust Hair at thirteen eighty nine Sixteenth Avenue East, and Maple Leaf Cannabis at ten forty seven Second Ave East.

01:42:51 Briana Bloomfield: The last item on the consent agenda is the information package.

01:42:53 Briana Bloomfield: A full listing is available at eleven D. Thank you.

01:43:06 Ian Boddy: Before you read it, Councilor Dodd, I understand that Deputy Mayor Greig wants you to not move the eleven A, just the others.

01:43:15 Ian Boddy: Read eleven.

01:43:16 Ian Boddy: Thank you, Worship.

01:43:21 Travis Dodd: Moved by myself, then consideration of the items listed on March ninth, two thousand and twenty six, consent agenda.

01:43:26 Travis Dodd: City Council receives items. eleven B to eleven D and approves.

01:43:27 Travis Dodd: Well, I'll end it there.

01:43:28 Travis Dodd: You wanted the second part of that, approving the recommendation eleven A. So, are we excluding that as well?

01:43:38 SPEAKER_020: Okay, so I'll leave it as eleven B to eleven D. Thank you.

01:43:42 SPEAKER_020: Call the question.

01:43:42 SPEAKER_020: All in favor?

01:43:43 SPEAKER_020: That's carried.

01:43:45 Ian Boddy: I want to go through this portion before I go back to eleven A. So, at eleven B, Councilor Merton, there is minutes from Council on Place Services Board, January twenty eighth, and nothing to report.

01:43:55 Ian Boddy: Oh, it's Councilor Capkey.

01:43:55 Ian Boddy: Sorry.

01:43:56 Ian Boddy: Thank you, Worship.

01:44:01 SPEAKER_015: Members of the Citizens on Patrol were recognized for their dedicated service and commitment to the community during their time with the program.

01:44:09 SPEAKER_015: This program is no longer being conducted, and the following were thanked for their many years of service: John Paul Karen, Jeff Lorenz, John Genero, Rob McFadder, Ralph Schreiber, Fader, Ralph Schribner, Rick Wardrop, and Brian Wood.

01:44:24 SPEAKER_015: The Crime Stoppers of Grey Bruce annual report for two thousand and twenty-five identified there were six hundred ninety-two tips received, and since they were incorporated in one thousand, nine hundred and eighty-seven, twenty thousand and thirty-one tips were received, which resulted in two thousand seven hundred and seventy-eight cases being cleared and two thousand six hundred and seventy-seven charges being laid.

01:44:48 SPEAKER_015: The Inspector of Policing Advisor discussed legislation that will begin to publicly release decisions and findings resulting from inspections into public complaints, as a commitment to transparency, accountability, and continuous improvement.

01:45:06 SPEAKER_015: The Criminal Investigation Branch provided information and investigation into cryptocurrency fraud cases and discussed the banning of cryptocurrency machines.

01:45:15 SPEAKER_015: The mental health team responded to 20 incidents.

01:45:20 SPEAKER_015: In 2025, there were four deaths attributed to drug overdoses, compared to 14 in 2024.

01:45:27 SPEAKER_015: The bail compliance and warrant apprehension team executed 11 outstanding warrants, six compliance checks, and registered unregistered sex offenders residing in our community.

01:45:39 SPEAKER_015: In 2025, the auxiliary unit provided a total of 105 hours, as well as an additional 38.5 hours for the food drive, which collected over six thousand dollars and 1,424 pounds of food.

01:45:49 SPEAKER_015: Frontline officers provided 225.5 hours in armed court security for the month of December.

01:46:04 SPEAKER_015: Noteworthy collision facts for 2025 identified the following intersections with the most reported collisions: Tenth Street East and Ninth Avenue East with 15 collisions, Sixteenth Street East and Ninth Avenue East with 14 collisions, and Tenth Street East and Fourth Avenue East with 14 collisions.

01:46:24 SPEAKER_015: The call response time was seven minutes from the call to an officer being on site.

01:46:29 SPEAKER_015: Highlights of the 2025 activity of the community safety officer were provided.

01:46:30 SPEAKER_015: Just under 83,000 bulk record checks were conducted.

01:46:36 SPEAKER_015: Just under 700 warrants were issued, and just under 900 arrests took place in 2025.

01:46:45 SPEAKER_015: And this was an overall slight reduction since 2024.

01:46:50 SPEAKER_015: However, there was just under a 62% increase in custody transports that took place for the month of December 2025.

01:46:58 SPEAKER_015: Further details of the above reports are provided.

01:46:59 SPEAKER_015: Of reports are provided in the contents of the minutes.

01:47:04 SPEAKER_015: Members learned of the Thirty Forward Initiative, which is initiative to see thirty percent of a police service with female sworn officers in two thousand and thirty.

01:47:14 SPEAKER_015: Owen Sound Police Services is currently at twenty four percent, and of the two thousand and twenty five recruits, forty percent of them were female.

01:47:22 SPEAKER_015: Members received an update on the building and facilities, identifying a temporary solution to additional parking space requirements along First Avenue East, along with other facility deficiencies being addressed by the city.

01:47:37 SPEAKER_015: The Special Investigation Unit reported on two different incidents regarding an aggressive and uncooperative individual and a domestic dispute.

01:47:48 SPEAKER_015: Owen Sound Police Services mental health apprehension wait times resulted in a slight decrease since two thousand and twenty four, and an average of one hour and 41 minutes of police wait time at the hospital.

01:47:57 SPEAKER_015: These statistics indicate an improvement in safety, safe transition from police care to healthcare professionals for individuals with mental health crisis.

01:47:59 SPEAKER_015: Members reviewed the budget presentation for council.

01:48:00 SPEAKER_015: Members reviewed the 2025 yearly opioid situation report, which identified a 61% reduction in opioid-related overdoses and a reduction of 77% in opioid-related facility fatalities since 2024.

01:48:47 SPEAKER_015: Members reviewed correspondence regarding data that can help identify and respond to issues of social inequities, discrimination, and systemic racism within Canadian society and the criminal justice system.

01:48:56 SPEAKER_015: When completing reports, police service members are now required to identify which of the seven racial categories best describes the individual: Black, East South Asian, East Southeast Asian, Indigenous, Latino, Middle Eastern, South Asian, or White.

01:48:58 SPEAKER_015: In an effort to improve police transparency and address the inequities.

01:49:00 SPEAKER_015: That concludes my summary.

01:49:01 SPEAKER_015: Summary of the Police Reform Minutes of January two thousand and twenty-six.

01:49:02 SPEAKER_015: Thank you, Councillor Palmer.

01:49:03 SPEAKER_015: Thank you, through the mayor, comment and a question.

01:49:07 SPEAKER_015: The comment.

01:49:19 Jon Farmer: So, I the annual collision statistics always catch my eye as an important indicator of community safety, especially through the lens of the new STRAT plan with the themes of a safe city and a city that moves.

01:49:31 Jon Farmer: I note that there was discussion among the board about what can be done to reduce collisions, and the chief was clear that it's design or the built environment, not just enforcement, that's the answer.

01:49:41 Jon Farmer: So, I wanted to flag that and share that there is a resource on StrongTowns.org called the Crash Analysis Studio.

01:49:47 Jon Farmer: It provides a process and framework for municipal staff or members of the public, or community groups, to analyze the causes of crash and determine what changes are possible to increase safety in a given environment.

01:49:59 Jon Farmer: And yeah, I think we could be doing that, but that's maybe an operations question motion.

01:50:07 Jon Farmer: I'm also curious.

01:50:09 Jon Farmer: The package included the information that leadership provided during the budget meeting for the city, and I'm that flagged for me.

01:50:19 Jon Farmer: I don't like.

01:50:19 Jon Farmer: I'm curious.

01:50:20 Jon Farmer: Are we expecting an update on the police budget or next steps there?

01:50:27 Jon Farmer: Leaving the budget meeting that we had, I wasn't sure what came next, and thought that there might still be discussion to come.

01:50:34 Jon Farmer: But I'm wondering if there are updates that way or if the budget just is what it is.

01:50:37 Jon Farmer: Okay.

01:50:41 SPEAKER_015: First of all, to respond on the data that's collected by police, just to clarify, police services collects the data, gives that to the city, and the city comes up with a solution for those intersections.

01:50:51 SPEAKER_015: So, if there's a problem, and and you've mentioned a few suggestions in that regard.

01:51:01 SPEAKER_015: With respect to the police board budget, at the February meeting, the board decided to try to work within the funding provided by the strong mayor's budget while maintaining adequate and effective policing.

01:51:14 SPEAKER_015: Attempts will be made to mitigate the differences without impacting the staffing levels proposed.

01:51:20 SPEAKER_015: Some funds from 2025 will offset the majority of the impact while still coming in below the 2025 police budget amount.

01:51:28 SPEAKER_015: Okay.

01:51:31 Ian Boddy: C eleven D. Is there any correspondence we see that you want to pull, Councillor Farmer?

01:51:39 Ian Boddy: Thank you, through the mayor.

01:51:40 Jon Farmer: I want to pull items two and three.

01:51:43 Jon Farmer: First, item two is a letter from the Bluewater District School Board to the Minister of Education, expressing concern about the proposal to eliminate trustees from all English public school boards.

01:51:54 Jon Farmer: It highlights the lack of consultation around the idea, the risk of removing elected local positions and subsequent loss of local advocacy and input, and calls for the province to actively engage and collaborate on those kinds of systems level changes to support the best interests of students.

01:52:12 Jon Farmer: I think that that's a good idea, and that council should support that.

01:52:16 Jon Farmer: So I would move the council formally support the board's position in the letter, and that we forward notice of that support to our local MPP, the Premier, the Minister of Education, the Bluewater District School Board, and leaders of all political parties sitting in Queens Park.

01:52:26 Jon Farmer: Okay, to hold, Councillor Hamley.

01:52:37 Brock Hamley: Just without being able to chat with the Integrity Commissioner, I'm going to declare pecuniary interest on this, and because I work for the Government of Ontario, and so I will step out.

01:52:46 Brock Hamley: Thanks.

01:52:58 Ian Boddy: Okay, so the motion is on the floor to support the Bluewater Board and and write to those people.

01:53:07 Ian Boddy: Any other comments?

01:53:08 Ian Boddy: All in favor.

01:53:08 Ian Boddy: All hands are going up.

01:53:09 Ian Boddy: That is carried.

01:53:10 Ian Boddy: Now, one didn't go up.

01:53:11 Ian Boddy: All the rest went up, so it's still carried.

01:53:12 Ian Boddy: Nothing else.

01:53:12 Ian Boddy: Through the mayor, so item three in the package, I'll just call attention to that as well.

01:53:14 Jon Farmer: There's a letter there from the mayor of Sarnia calling on the province to clarify and re-examine the intersection of strong mayor powers and policing budgets.

01:53:29 Jon Farmer: So folks watching at home might remember that shortly before our own budget process concluded, the province informed municipalities that strong mayor powers can't be used to limit police service board increases, budget increases, which raised the question across Ontario of whether there is now any limit or oversight to increases to police budgets.

01:53:49 Jon Farmer: And in Sarnia's case, the letter and connected articles lay out that their police service had a greater than forty percent budget increase for the operational budget over four years, and their mayor ended up having to use the strong mayor veto to then remove a five million dollar capital item from the budget.

01:53:59 Jon Farmer: But that was not without controversy.

01:54:11 Jon Farmer: There, and municipalities like Owen Sound, we didn't ask for strong mayor powers to be expanded.

01:54:17 Jon Farmer: When we learned of the proposal, we asked that they not be.

01:54:18 Jon Farmer: The province expanded them anyway, and we've had to adapt.

01:54:22 Jon Farmer: And similarly, we didn't ask for additional administrative and staffing burdens to be added to the policing act, or more recently to court security practices, but they have been, and and we've had to deal with them.

01:54:32 Jon Farmer: So as the province increases administrative burdens for municipalities and our police services, downloads costs for services ranging from homelessness responses to court security, and reduces opportunities for local input on everything from conservation authorities and school boards, to our ability to install bike lanes and and approve developments.

01:54:54 Jon Farmer: I think it's important that Owen Sound continue to speak up when we see a problem and just name that.

01:54:58 Jon Farmer: So, I will similarly move that Owen Sound support the letter from the mayor of Sarnia and furthermore, that we call on the province to address the structural and funding issues resulting from the expansion of strong mayor powers and the updates to the Community Safety and Policing Act, and additionally, that we forward notice of that motion to our local MPP, the premier, the mayor of Sarnia, and again, leaders of Party City and Queens Park.

01:55:14 Jon Farmer: And I meant to say AMO as well.

01:55:17 Jon Farmer: Councillor Hamley.

01:55:18 Jon Farmer: Similarly to the last, just to be better safe than sorry, I'll just declare a direct pecuniary interest in this as I work for the government of Ontario.

01:55:31 Jon Farmer: Thank you.

01:55:33 Jon Farmer: Councillor Merton.

01:55:42 Jon Farmer: Thank you, Mayor.

01:55:51 Carol Merton: Before we proceed with that motion, I would be interested in what our strong mayor says about that, because it is you're referencing a strong mayor delegation, and and it would be interesting.

01:56:00 Carol Merton: And I'm wondering if it would be helpful to redirect that back to the Owen Sound, like the Owen Sound Police Services Board, to allow them the opportunity to discuss this as well.

01:56:21 Carol Merton: I understand the intent of bringing this forward in the motion, but I I would certainly appreciate additional input.

01:56:30 Carol Merton: Thank you, Deputy Mayor Greig.

01:56:31 Carol Merton: I'd be glad, happy to support that motion.

01:56:32 Carol Merton: I do have one question.

01:56:41 Good: This the strong mayor's powers seem to be somewhat in secrecy, developed over a long period of time before being expanded throughout the province, this seems like a bit of a knee-jerk on-the-fly response from the province, as opposed to the long thought-out process that existed in the expansion of strong mayor powers.

01:56:53 Good: I don't find it pleasing whatsoever.

01:57:07 Good: I like to see thought-out policy and thought-out legislation in place.

01:57:17 Good: Is staff aware of any municipalities or any effort in terms of getting a legal opinion or a legal challenge on that desire from or that acknowledgement from the province?

01:57:35 Good: Then that no, they're just not going to apply to strong mayor powers, but they're going to apply to everything else.

01:57:40 Good: Are we aware of anything at this time yet?

01:57:43 Good: Because I would certainly be in favor if that instance arises, that that legislation or that direction gets challenged.

01:57:45 Good: Mr. Simmons, thank you.

01:57:46 Good: Through through, you mayor to the deputy mayor.

01:57:47 Good: At this time, I'm not aware of any.

01:57:49 Good: I don't.

01:57:56 Tim Simmonds: The clerk and I have spoken about this in the past.

01:58:02 Tim Simmonds: I don't think our clerk, without putting words in her mouth, is aware of any legal challenges happening from another municipality or jurisdiction within the province right now.

01:58:12 Tim Simmonds: Think further.

01:58:12 Tim Simmonds: I don't yet.

01:58:13 Tim Simmonds: I guess.

01:58:13 Tim Simmonds: No, I won't initiate such action tonight.

01:58:26 Good: But it'd be worth watching and keeping our eyes on because something has to be done about that kind of a response from the province.

01:58:38 Ian Boddy: I just, I just note in the same meeting you've got this issue that the premier is writing a letter to a municipality, telling them what they can budget and what they can't budget.

01:58:50 Ian Boddy: Now, what they're talking about is that we couldn't use strong mayor powers to pick lines out of the police budget.

01:58:59 Ian Boddy: We could only approve the overall budget or give the budget back as the act actually says to the police budget, saying, "Here's how much you're getting to spend," and that's exactly what we did.

01:59:08 Ian Boddy: We didn't go through line by line.

01:59:09 Ian Boddy: Mayor Bradley is upset.

01:59:13 Ian Boddy: Is the police board, and we're hearing it locally, wants to build their own police building, but it's supposed to be the city's responsibility to provide the capital for that building, and therefore it makes sense that to me and certainly to Mayor Bradley and other mayors across the province, that that should be a budget decision on the capital part, on the city side, not on the police board side.

01:59:29 Ian Boddy: In the act, we're not allowed to go through line by line, but that's supposed to be, from my understanding, on policing itself, not the capital side of it.

01:59:39 Ian Boddy: So that's where it becomes an issue.

01:59:41 Ian Boddy: But on top of that, it we have boards of education that are elected locally and have input locally that may be under the line of fire.

01:59:54 Ian Boddy: We have conservation authorities that may be under the line of fire that have local input, local direction.

02:00:04 Ian Boddy: It causes me concern from a municipal point of view.

02:00:15 Ian Boddy: When yes, we're creatures of the province as municipalities, but it seems like our jurisdiction keeps shrinking and. as Deputy Mayor Greig has said, it doesn't seem to be on a consistent policy that we're building out.

02:00:24 Ian Boddy: That there's a plan.

02:00:25 Ian Boddy: There, it seems to be on reactions.

02:00:26 Ian Boddy: So I support this motion.

02:00:27 Ian Boddy: So there's no other comments.

02:00:28 Ian Boddy: I'm going to call the motion on favor.

02:00:30 Ian Boddy: It is carried.

02:00:32 Ian Boddy: One opposed, both on screen voted for it.

02:00:34 Ian Boddy: Councillor Hamley can come back.

02:00:37 Ian Boddy: Good, good.

02:00:37 Ian Boddy: Go ahead.

02:00:59 Good: Just if I could, I'd like to just note the municipal public works workers facing escalating threats in the job goes through what some of their members are experiencing in terms of across the province threats to kill sidewalk and plow operators, a person climbing onto a snowplow and refusing to get off till the road was cleared first, staff confronted and aggressively yelled at in public spaces.

02:01:11 Good: This and the etc. etc. have good half dozen examples here.

02:01:27 Good: I'm not going to move the motion that AO are asks is asking to be contemplated for, but I would like to say if the mayor grants me the latitude to hear stories like that is beyond ludicrous and stupid.

02:01:45 Good: There is legislation within the criminal code already existing to resolve issues like that, and I would hope that it is deployed each and every time to protect the health and wellness for individuals working for municipalities across the province who do their very best looking after public service, doing their part for the public service, maintaining safety on our roads or sidewalks.

02:02:14 Good: I know locally here, our crew takes immense care in the municipality of Owen Sound, demonstrating extreme professionalism.

02:02:26 Good: If they had the means, they would endeavor to probably get all the roads and sidewalks done in an hour.

02:02:34 Good: That's not that's not possible, but they do their very best throughout the year, responding to could be water main breaks at minus fourteen on a Friday night when we're all with our families or out for the evening, or working long shifts through snowy winters like we've just had.

02:02:52 Good: So, just like to note that from where we sit locally, I hear nothing but congratulatory sentiment from members in our community to the efforts and the professionalism of our works department.

02:03:01 Good: So, kudos to them.

02:03:11 Good: It's very disappointing to see that kind of advocacy, I guess, being asked for to respond.

02:03:17 Good: But at the same time, we can't legislate our way out of what is ludicrous and stupid in some of the population.

02:03:25 Good: Good, thank you.

02:03:27 Ian Boddy: I just wanted to clarify that a lot of those those complaints aren't local; they're across the province.

02:03:32 Ian Boddy: Just in case we're creating a storyline that wasn't quite accurate.

02:03:34 Ian Boddy: Thank you.

02:03:34 Ian Boddy: So I think we've gone through eleven.

02:03:35 Ian Boddy: Oh, we've got to go back to eleven A. Okay, so I've got.

02:03:37 Ian Boddy: Have I called the vote?

02:03:38 Ian Boddy: I've called the vote on this.

02:03:39 Ian Boddy: So now it's back.

02:03:41 Ian Boddy: Sorry.

02:03:49 Ian Boddy: Now I can go back to eleven A. Okay.

02:03:57 Ian Boddy: Thank your worship.

02:03:57 Ian Boddy: Move myself that I would receive and approve the recommendations contained in item eleven A. And go ahead.

02:03:59 Ian Boddy: This, I do have a question.

02:04:12 Good: When we, as council, approved the inclusion of fifty thousand dollars within the capital budget, it's not clear to me in the report that that fifty thousand is to respond to outcomes that are found with the consulting work that's being done with the grant from the province.

02:04:21 Good: So, I guess for me, is it eighty-seven thousand five hundred dollars that we're looking to spend a taxpayer's money on a consulting study to tell us what we need to do downtown, or is this thirty-seven thousand dollars and five hundred thirty-seven thousand five hundred dollars being funded from?

02:04:39 Good: A higher tier taxpayer, and we've included fifty thousand dollars in our capital budget to respond to new tree grades, safety hazards downtown, benches, lights.

02:05:06 Good: I guess that's what I'm looking for clarity for, because I certainly couldn't support almost ninety thousand dollars for a consulting study to tell us what to do downtown.

02:05:15 Good: Ms. Coulter, oh sorry, just pushed your button, took it away from you.

02:05:16 Good: Go ahead.

02:05:17 Good: Thank you, Worship.

02:05:25 Pam Coulter: As Council will recall, last summer in July, you hosted a community stakeholder meeting out of the or about the River District, and out of that meeting came a number of reports from the city manager, really around fostering a vibrant River District, and there were several actions.

02:05:34 Pam Coulter: And just going back to look at that October sixth report.

02:05:36 Pam Coulter: It talked about the River District revitalization plan and or plan.

02:05:43 Pam Coulter: And due to timing, staff had already made an application for that grant.

02:05:58 Pam Coulter: It describes the scope of the project, and I think it was understood that it would be a consultant who would prepare that plan.

02:06:06 Pam Coulter: So, with that report in October, Council had directed that we bring fifty thousand dollars to your capital review, and that happened in December.

02:06:15 Pam Coulter: And then in the report, you'll see the the resolution from Capital.

02:06:23 Pam Coulter: So, yes, the eighty-seven two fifty would be for a study to identify the actions in the River District that are outlined in that both October and this report.

02:06:33 Pam Coulter: Oh, recorded vote.

02:06:33 Pam Coulter: Councilor Farmer.

02:06:34 Pam Coulter: Through the mayor, I am curious.

02:06:50 Jon Farmer: So, the the meeting that was held last July did not include downtown residents as stakeholders, and I'm curious as we having already approved fifty thousand dollars for this project, and the question in front of us is around whether the grant will top that up.

02:07:09 Jon Farmer: But I'm I'm curious just to clarify: is the this project going to offer opportunities for downtown residents to participate, or will it similarly scope the input to businesses and professional organizations?

02:07:27 Pam Coulter: Through your worship, this is into the scope of work that would be described in the RFP that we would initiate to look for the consultant to do that work.

02:07:38 Pam Coulter: Certainly, as we work to update the River District Action Plan, which was the plan that BC Hughes did, there will be opportunities for input.

02:07:48 Pam Coulter: But through this plan, if it's Council's wish, I don't see any reason why it wouldn't include some public input and review.

02:08:03 Jon Farmer: Yeah, I guess if we're having heard the Deputy Mayor ask for a recorded vote, I'll say ahead of time.

02:08:08 Jon Farmer: I think that if we're already doing the project, we've heard the clear community need that saying no to grant funding to support that.

02:08:16 Jon Farmer: I don't understand why we wouldn't top that up.

02:08:17 Jon Farmer: So I'm happy to approve this particular motion.

02:08:19 Jon Farmer: Anyone else?

02:08:25 Ian Boddy: My only observation is these may be things that are going to get cut if we start having to pay big, big, big money for some of the downloads from Grey County.

02:08:35 Ian Boddy: But with that, we'll call the question.

02:08:36 Ian Boddy: All in favor?

02:08:37 Ian Boddy: Votes recorded.

02:08:37 Ian Boddy: Sorry.

02:08:37 Ian Boddy: Councillor Dodd.

02:08:38 Ian Boddy: In favor.

02:08:38 Ian Boddy: Councillor Farmer.

02:08:38 Ian Boddy: In favor.

02:08:39 Ian Boddy: Councillor Koepke.

02:08:39 Marion Koepke: In favor.

02:08:39 Marion Koepke: Councillor Kukreja.

02:08:40 Marion Koepke: In favor.

02:08:40 Marion Koepke: Councillor Merton.

02:08:40 Marion Koepke: In favor.

02:08:41 Marion Koepke: Councillor Middlebro.

02:08:41 Marion Koepke: Opposed.

02:08:41 Marion Koepke: Deputy Mayor Greig.

02:08:42 Marion Koepke: Opposed.

02:08:42 Marion Koepke: Mayor Boddy.

02:08:43 Marion Koepke: The resolution carries with six in favor and two opposed.

02:08:44 Marion Koepke: Okay, I think that gets us through all of eleven now.

02:08:54 Marion Koepke: So, twelve.

02:09:32 Ian Boddy: A minutes of the Community Services Committee meeting held on February eighteen, twenty twenty six.

02:09:42 Ian Boddy: Councillor Mitterbrock.

02:09:42 Ian Boddy: Thank you, through your worship, the Community Services Committee met February eighteen.

02:09:44 Ian Boddy: The meeting began with the election of chair and vice chair.

02:09:46 Melanie Koepke: I was acclaimed as the chair, and Councillor Koepke was acclaimed as the vice chair.

02:09:48 Melanie Koepke: The committee confirmed the minutes of the Community Services Committee meeting held on January twenty first, twenty twenty six.

02:10:02 Melanie Koepke: Committee received a presentation from Savannah Myers, the Director of Economic Development, Tourism, and Culture at Grey County, on a Team Grey Memorandum of Understanding.

02:10:13 Melanie Koepke: The Team Grey MOU focus is on regional economic development and investment readiness for all of the nine member municipalities.

02:10:21 Melanie Koepke: The MOU focus is to strengthen collaborative relationships between Grey County and member municipalities, clarifying roles and responsibilities, and sharing resources to avoid duplication of effort.

02:10:31 Melanie Koepke: There are two identified priorities: number one, leadership and collaboration, and two, investment readiness.

02:10:40 Melanie Koepke: Following the presentation, committee then moved item ten C two up in the agenda as it pertained to the presentation from Grey County.

02:10:48 Melanie Koepke: Staff report CM twenty six zero zero nine is a report from the Senior Advisor, External Relations and Investment Readiness, which recommended that respecting the Team Grey Memorandum of Understanding, the Community Services Committee recommends that City Council directs City Manager to execute the Team Grey MOU substantially in the form attached to the report, and that the recommendation was carried.

02:11:11 Melanie Koepke: And just so we're clear, the MOU will be in place from the point that it is signed until December 31st, 2028.

02:11:20 Melanie Koepke: Committee then received a presentation from the committee and executive support coordinator and director of community services on the committee orientation and introduction, which gave an overview of the community services division, the mandate of the committee, 2025 interesting facts and accomplishments, as well as outlining some of the upcoming 2026 projects.

02:11:42 Melanie Koepke: At 10:01, committee then received report CM 26004 from the director of community services regarding the committee orientation and 2026 annual organizational work plan.

02:11:54 Melanie Koepke: There wasn't much discussion as the previous presentation had covered the main substance of the report, which was received for information.

02:12:01 Melanie Koepke: At 10B1, committee then received report CS26011 from the events coordinator and river district coordinator regarding the 2025 tourism year-end wrap-up.

02:12:13 Melanie Koepke: The report gave an overview of the various events carried out under the tourism and events banner, such as Savor Owen Sound, Snow and Sound Frolics, the Salmon Tour, and Nature's Gateway campaign, as well as the statistics from the tourism website use, the new tourism app, and visitor services highlights.

02:12:30 Melanie Koepke: An overview of the plans for 2026 were discussed, and the tourism team was congratulated on running a fulsome program of events in 2025 with a diminished staff.

02:12:40 Melanie Koepke: It was noted that a future report reviewing the first year of tourism at the Tom will be brought to the service review implementation ad hoc committee at some point this year.

02:12:49 Melanie Koepke: At 10C1, committee then discussed report CS.

02:12:52 Melanie Koepke: Committee then discussed report CM twenty six zero one zero from the Senior Advisor, External Relations and Investment Attraction, regarding initiatives to support investment readiness.

02:13:04 Melanie Koepke: The report highlighted that the city is actively pursuing investment readiness initiatives that include close collaboration with Grey County and other stakeholders.

02:13:13 Melanie Koepke: Provincial cost sharing funding of up to one hundred and fifty thousand dollars is available for projects that support implementation of an existing economic development plan or strategy.

02:13:24 Melanie Koepke: And staff are proposing a harbour development task force to promote regional collaboration between the city, First Nations, Grey County municipalities, and other stakeholders, with a mandate to consider harbour development opportunities and to report back to council with recommendations for future action by fall two thousand and twenty six.

02:13:44 Melanie Koepke: The report identified a number of initiatives staff are working on and other opportunities for local economic development.

02:13:51 Melanie Koepke: There was much discussion on the proposed task force, and committee had concerns about the mandate and composition of the task force, which was to include twelve members, with only two members of Owen Sound Council.

02:14:03 Melanie Koepke: There were to be two Indigenous members, four members of the County of Grey member municipalities, four members of the community.

02:14:12 Melanie Koepke: Members had concern that the committee was heavily weighted with members not necessarily from Owen Sound, and they would be helping to determine the direction of harbour development.

02:14:20 Melanie Koepke: In the end, committee moved the first two parts of the recommendation that, in consideration of staff report CM twenty six zero one zero respecting initiatives to support investment readiness, the community services committee recommends that city council direct staff to one collaborate with Grey County on investment readiness initiatives, including assessments or feasibility studies required to support site packaging activities, and two apply for grant funding to implement the External Relations and Investment Attraction Plan 2025 through 2027.

02:14:53 Melanie Koepke: Those recommendations were carried, and committee did not move the recommendation for the task force.

02:14:59 Melanie Koepke: A subsequent motion was moved by Councillor Koepke that, in consideration of the staff report CM 2600, respecting initiatives to support investment readiness, the Community Services Committee recommends that City Council direct staff to bring forward a report outlining the correlation between the updated official plan and harbour development and proposed next steps to a future meeting of the Community Services Committee, which was carried.

02:15:26 Melanie Koepke: At 10D1, committee then received report CS 29009 from the Director of Community Services regarding park naming.

02:15:33 Melanie Koepke: Eight Twenty Third Avenue East, the former Ryerson Park.

02:15:38 Melanie Koepke: This report outlined the possible next steps in the process of renaming the park and is a follow up to previous reports that have guided the process of the park renaming.

02:15:47 Melanie Koepke: Previous report recommended prioritizing a name with a locational reference.

02:15:53 Melanie Koepke: The report identified a number of name suggestions for the park, including Old School Park, Eighth Street Park, Boyd Street Park, and Friendship Land in Anishnabe.

02:16:04 Melanie Koepke: Next steps, according to the report, would be for staff to use the city's public engagement platform to create a project page that would inform the public on the renaming process and allow them to vote on the name for the park as well as propose additional names.

02:16:20 Melanie Koepke: Survey vote results and feedback from Saugeen Ojibway Nation would come back to committee at a future meeting once the name is recommended, policy requires public notice of at least ten days for additional input, and then would be presented to committee with a final recommendation.

02:16:36 Melanie Koepke: The recommendation attached to the report was that, in consideration of staff report CS two six zero zero nine regarding the naming of the park at Eight Twenty Third Avenue East, the Community Services Committee recommends that City Council directs staff to undertake public engagement regarding four potential park names, including Eighth Street Park, Boyd Street Park, Old School Park, and Friendship Land, as outlined in the report, and that recommendation was carried.

02:17:02 Melanie Koepke: At thirteen A, committee received the memorandum from the Chief Building Official and Manager of Planning and Heritage regarding the development update.

02:17:10 Melanie Koepke: Key highlights were that SkyDev Building A has reached three stories, and the amenity building steel structure has been erected.

02:17:17 Melanie Koepke: There is an application for an eleven-unit townhouse development.

02:17:19 Melanie Koepke: Eleven unit townhouse development at Ninth Avenue East, two thousand and twenty-five saw five hundred and sixty-six new residential units based on issued permits, and twelve permits have been issued in January of two thousand and twenty-six with construction value of five hundred and fifty-eight thousand dollars.

02:17:29 Melanie Koepke: That memo was received for information purposes.

02:17:30 Melanie Koepke: I have been asked to pull report ten D one, so at this time I will move receipt of the minutes of Community Services Committee of February eighteenth, two thousand and twenty-six, and the recommendations contained within save and accept item ten D one at this time.

02:17:45 Melanie Koepke: Any questions?

02:17:45 Melanie Koepke: I will call the question.

02:17:46 Melanie Koepke: Then oh, there is one.

02:17:48 Melanie Koepke: Through the mayor, just to clarify, ten D one the park renaming specifically.

02:17:53 Melanie Koepke: So you moved everything but ten D for Donald.

02:17:56 Ian Boddy: 10D for Donald.

02:18:01 Ian Boddy: Okay, so we're all on the same page.

02:18:03 Ian Boddy: Call the question.

02:18:05 Ian Boddy: All in favor?

02:18:06 Ian Boddy: Both hands and screen are in favor.

02:18:08 Ian Boddy: Everyone in the room is in favor.

02:18:13 Ian Boddy: That's carried.

02:18:13 Ian Boddy: Now you're going to 10D for Donald.

02:18:16 Ian Boddy: Yes.

02:18:17 Ian Boddy: So at this time, I will move item 10D for Donald.

02:18:21 Ian Boddy: One, the report on the park naming for the former Ryerson Park location and the recommendation contained within.

02:18:24 Moving Forward: Through the mayor, I think it's great that this is moving forward, but I also think that the current plan could be improved in two ways.

02:18:45 Jon Farmer: First, I think it's confusing to ask the public to vote on the website at multiple points.

02:18:51 Jon Farmer: First, while accepting additional suggestions, and then again once there's a longer list.

02:18:56 Jon Farmer: Second, I think that we need to learn from the parable of Bodie McBoutface and use a ranked voting option so that we can see where there's the most possible support and not create an opportunity for one name to get a plurality of votes instead of a majority of support.

02:19:11 Jon Farmer: I also think we need to be really clear that, according to our policy, this the public engagement piece is a tool to assess public interest, not to determine the name.

02:19:19 Jon Farmer: So that folks don't think that whatever gets the most support online is the de facto name.

02:19:25 Jon Farmer: I think we need to be really clear about that because that's not necessarily what I think folks would assume.

02:19:30 Jon Farmer: So I'm going to move an amendment directing staff to refine the engagement process to first solicit additional name suggestions and subsequently open a period of specifically ranked voting.

02:19:39 Jon Farmer: So that's my amendment.

02:19:40 Jon Farmer: Probably helpful to I don't know send that to the clerks.

02:19:49 Jon Farmer: But again, the changes there are instead of vote on the name twice, vote on the name specifically to break that up and have a ranked voting system.

02:19:58 Jon Farmer: Through your worship, it sounded to me like a completely different motion.

02:20:00 Jon Farmer: I'm not sure how you're amending what's before us.

02:20:13 Briana Bloomfield: So I don't know if you want to vote on the first motion, and if it fails, vote on the subsequent motion, or if you can explain further how we're actually amending this motion.

02:20:21 Briana Bloomfield: The through the mayor, yes.

02:20:25 Jon Farmer: So through the mayor, the current the current recommendation and the staff flow includes putting something onto the website, and having voting at different points.

02:20:35 Jon Farmer: I am only suggesting a revision where the opportunity to add names doesn't go along with voting.

02:20:45 Jon Farmer: So still saying put a project page on the website, still saying bring the workflow back in all the same steps, but specifically saying. ranked voting when it's voting, and to separate that initial period of voting and name suggestion at the same time.

02:21:04 Jon Farmer: I wonder if the director of community services would want to comment on whether that is a totally different proposal or if that fits within the work plan as described.

02:21:13 Jon Farmer: Through your worship, if if I think I understand the motion, we would do many of the same things.

02:21:28 Pam Coulter: We'll still build the platform, but the first action would be to look for new names before there would be any voting, and then once there was voting, the only part of the possible amendment is the ranked voting.

02:21:37 Pam Coulter: And I don't know if the engagement platform will allow ranked voting.

02:21:46 Pam Coulter: I would note that the voting, as the councillors pointed out, isn't the be-all and the end-all.

02:21:55 Pam Coulter: It's not the end.

02:22:00 Pam Coulter: There's other input and other engagement that's going to happen, and all of that will come back to committee.

02:22:07 Pam Coulter: But I think it would just be amending the motion to allow additional names before to be added before there would be voting.

02:22:17 Pam Coulter: That does capture my intention.

02:22:22 Jon Farmer: And if we don't know the tools of the website currently, then I would add to the amendment, if possible, for ranked voting, so that staff can figure that out with IT rather than having to bake that in specifically.

02:22:31 Jon Farmer: Ms. Bloomfield, do you understand the motion, and can you help us understand it?

02:22:46 Briana Bloomfield: Through you, Your Worship, my understanding is that we would be adding to this motion before us to allow additional names before voting and ranked voting where possible.

02:22:55 Briana Bloomfield: Okay, so everyone understand that, Councillor Koepke.

02:22:56 Briana Bloomfield: So I'm just so I have this clear.

02:23:09 SPEAKER_015: It's the public engagement process that's being talked about here as the amendment.

02:23:15 SPEAKER_015: And help me understand how ranked voting is different than the most popular.

02:23:21 SPEAKER_015: Through the mayor.

02:23:22 SPEAKER_015: So a ranked, if there are a ranked ballot, allows you in a very simple example.

02:23:27 Jon Farmer: If there are four of us and we say, oh, sorry, if there are five of us, and we say we're ordering a pizza, what do we want to be on the pizza?

02:23:39 Jon Farmer: And two people say liver, and one person says pepperoni, and one person says pineapple, and one person says mushrooms.

02:23:47 Jon Farmer: The people who want liver will win because it's just the most number of.

02:23:49 Jon Farmer: They just have two, and all the other options just have one.

02:23:56 Jon Farmer: If we could rank that, and three people say liver is my least favorite option, then we know that we shouldn't probably get liver on the pizza because everyone's second option is pineapple.

02:24:08 Jon Farmer: So a ranked ballot lets you judge a more comprehensive support than just a plurality, and where it's just we end up with liver park.

02:24:18 Jon Farmer: So basically, people get five choices: one, two, three, four.

02:24:20 Jon Farmer: They rank it in five spots, as opposed to voting for a name.

02:24:22 Jon Farmer: Okay.

02:24:22 Jon Farmer: Go ahead, Councillor Dodd.

02:24:22 SPEAKER_015: Thank you, Worship, and I am.

02:24:24 SPEAKER_015: I'll be honest, Councillor Farmer.

02:24:27 SPEAKER_015: I haven't gone into the system.

02:24:28 SPEAKER_015: Say we are voting twice.

02:24:46 Travis Dodd: From my understanding, though, there was going to be the four potential names, but also an other section that would allow for additional names to be provided at that time.

02:24:54 Travis Dodd: So, if it was that you wanted to have it Liver Park, you could list that in there.

02:24:59 Travis Dodd: Is that that's still a component of of the intended original motion?

02:25:05 SPEAKER_115: Is it not?

02:25:05 SPEAKER_115: To your worship, I understand.

02:25:06 SPEAKER_115: I think it is.

02:25:09 Pam Coulter: I think the only benefit in refining the motion a little bit would be if we identified additional names that had a locational connection, which it needs to have to be consistent with the original council direction.

02:25:19 Pam Coulter: Then we would only have one series of, hopefully, ranked voting, and then the inputs brought back to the committee, the other engagement, and the voting.

02:25:59 Ian Boddy: So, in a way, I think if we can refine the motion to first add additional names and then undertake the voting, it it may in fact shorten the process if if I understand what's intended.

02:26:09 Ian Boddy: So, again, for clarity, this isn't the final vote.

02:26:10 Ian Boddy: This is collecting information from the public, and it will come back to the committee to decide at the end.

02:26:12 Ian Boddy: Correct?

02:26:12 Ian Boddy: Yes, to committee and council.

02:26:13 Ian Boddy: Okay, so the amendment is on the floor first, and we need to vote on that.

02:26:15 Ian Boddy: I'll call.

02:26:15 Ian Boddy: So we need to vote on that.

02:26:16 Ian Boddy: I'll call the question.

02:26:17 Ian Boddy: All in favor?

02:26:18 Ian Boddy: One, two, three, four.

02:26:18 Ian Boddy: On screen, five, six.

02:26:19 Ian Boddy: It carries.

02:26:20 Ian Boddy: Okay.

02:26:20 Ian Boddy: So then I need to call the amended the motion with the amendment on it.

02:26:22 Ian Boddy: Any further discussion?

02:26:22 Ian Boddy: Seeing none.

02:26:23 Ian Boddy: All in favor?

02:26:24 Ian Boddy: That is carried, including both votes on screen.

02:26:27 Ian Boddy: Thank you.

02:26:35 Ian Boddy: That covers everything.

02:26:40 Ian Boddy: So what?

02:26:40 Ian Boddy: Twelve B Deputy Mayor Greig.

02:26:41 Ian Boddy: I think Operations Committee February Eighteenth.

02:26:42 Ian Boddy: Okay, and I will quickly introduce these.

02:26:52 Good: Councilor Farmer was chosen as vice chair.

02:26:55 Good: Myself as chair from the Operations Committee meeting held in February.

02:26:59 Good: I present to Council that committee received the annual introductory department orientation and secondly a deputation from Pearson Engineering on the Sixteenth Street East Pedestrian Tunnel.

02:27:08 Good: Committee was introduced to existing conditions and the proposed project improvements, which are to install waterproofing and concrete distribution slab on top of the tunnel, repair all areas of deteriorated concrete, add new retaining walls to the south end, to permit roadway widening, widen the south roadway embankment to permit a sidewalk, and to add new curb and guidrail.

02:27:30 Good: There will be temporary lane closures during late spring and fall during construction.

02:27:35 Good: Discussion was had as well regarding potential lighting options for the tunnel, as well as interior art preservation or initiatives which could be had with the local art community or the future neighboring secondary school.

02:27:47 Good: Both items which could be added to the tender is provisional.

02:27:50 Good: The departmental work plan was received for information.

02:27:53 Good: Committee had discussion providing general feedback on design concepts, building off the public open house related to the Fourth Avenue West reconstruction, from 15th Street to 20th Street West.

02:28:06 Good: The road is classified as collector with sidewalks for the majority on both sides of the road.

02:28:11 Good: It currently exists as 3.5 meters width northbound and 5 meters width southbound with allowable parking on southbound side.

02:28:21 Good: Engineering is working around constraints such as hydro and lighting poles, fire hydrant, telecommunications vaults, mature trees, and private structures.

02:28:30 Good: The report showcased four options, which included reconstruction to existing cross section, reconstruction to a typical city collector cross section, meaning a 3.5 meter lane width, no parking, and two 1.5 meter wide bicycle lanes.

02:28:49 Good: Option three using a 3.5 meter lane width, no parking or cycling lane, and a new multi-use path, and option four. a four and a quarter meter lane, no parking for cycling or no parking or cycling lanes, and a new multi-use path.

02:28:58 Good: The project will come back to council for final consideration prior to tendering.

02:29:00 Good: Committee is asking council to endorse approval of a one-year extension to April month end, 2027, for Flixbus to use the transit terminal platform.

02:29:08 Good: The agreement provides $500 monthly for the terminal.

02:29:11 Good: Flixbus is aware that terminal facility access is contingent on the continuation of GO services on Sunday and holidays, and should that agreement end, arrangements would need to be discussed regarding recovery of any expenses attributable.

02:29:26 Good: The last report was the 2025 annual drinking water report.

02:29:37 Good: The report notes that treated water production was up 1.01 percent and billed water up 0.06 percent from 2024.

02:29:47 Good: Unaccounted for distribution remained steady at 18.54 percent.

02:29:56 Good: There were 29 main breaks, which is above average, and contributes to explaining a lack of reduction in unaccounted for water.

02:30:04 Good: Taste and odor complaints were down, attributable to normal seasonal source water temperatures.

02:30:10 Good: The drinking water management review and internal external audits reported zero instances of regulatory noncompliance, zero incidents of adverse drinking water tests, zero deviations from critical control point limits, and response actions.

02:30:25 Good: And noted one issue of noncompliance on the internal audit for documents not being current or updated with current information.

02:30:33 Good: The report notes that the QMS or quality management system is currently being maintained part time by an existing operator, and the elimination of the water and wastewater administrative assistant significantly.

02:30:44 Good: Administrative assistant significantly limited the ability to keep QMS documents up to date and meet continuous improvement commitment.

02:30:50 Good: A supporting business case to this role has been created, and I will note that the report also notes a one hundred percent MECP inspection score for operational performance.

02:31:00 Good: So congratulations to Lara and her team.

02:31:01 Good: Committee also received for information a memo detailing winter control activities.

02:31:09 Good: The memo shows last snow response days due to downtime for equipment repairs, precipitated by the steady requirement for snow clearing since late November.

02:31:19 Good: I welcome any questions and ask for council's endorsement of the recommendations contained within.

02:31:24 Good: Are there any questions?

02:31:25 Good: Go ahead.

02:31:25 Good: Thank you, Worship.

02:31:29 Travis Dodd: And just to jump back to item ten B, which was regarding the Fourth Ave West reconstruction.

02:31:34 Travis Dodd: It's funny I took Madden to.

02:31:35 Travis Dodd: I take Madden to to his daycare, which is on Twenty Th Street, and just calls it the bumpy ride.

02:31:42 Travis Dodd: He might as well be wearing a helmet when he's in the back of our car while we ride that street.

02:31:47 Travis Dodd: So, considering our recent conversation that we just had with the county, not knowing what future download costs may be for road restructuring, hate to even bring this up in this way.

02:31:58 Travis Dodd: Out of those four options, what was the most least expensive option that was provided at that meeting?

02:32:07 Good: I believe status quo is the least expensive, and I think it scaled from option A to option D in terms of the expense.

02:32:16 Good: But I might lead that to the director just to clarify if I'm incorrect with that.

02:32:25 Good: Through the mayor, you are correct.

02:32:26 Good: Only it's numbers, not letters.

02:32:27 Good: Go ahead.

02:32:27 Christopher Stevens: Thank you.

02:32:28 Christopher Stevens: I also had questions about this.

02:32:29 Christopher Stevens: The options seem so varying from like just straight reconstruction of the road, which is what I assumed we were doing.

02:32:51 Melanie Koepke: I didn't know that we were entertaining other options of road widening and and activity pathways and bike lanes and and all of these things.

02:33:00 Melanie Koepke: I thought we were just doing a simple underground infrastructure with a repaving of the road.

02:33:02 Melanie Koepke: So my question is, without knowing the the numbers and cost and everything, why are we taking this to the public for their consideration?

02:33:09 Melanie Koepke: And I'll use the kind of the the same analogy with the. the summer folk grant that we we asked for we're going to ask for a report when we knew that we didn't have the funding for it anyway so why would we ask for the report if we know that we don't have the the funding for options two three and four then why are we going through this process is my question through the mayor to councilor Middlebro' part of part of the reason for that is that our official plan and other documents do show an active transportation corridor so we're following that excuse me it's not necessarily on East Sergeant Parkway but it's it's on a corridor where it's where it's potentially appropriate because it's a residential area.

02:34:07 Jon Farmer: It also has a school and a daycare.

02:34:11 Jon Farmer: It's got it's near connects to a park.

02:34:24 Jon Farmer: There are other facilities there that would lend itself nicely to an active transportation route.

02:34:31 Jon Farmer: The road's already a non-standard width.

02:34:32 Jon Farmer: It's not just two lanes.

02:34:33 Jon Farmer: It's like two and a half.

02:34:37 Jon Farmer: So we're not substantially making it wider because a major component of it is to try to save as many trees as possible.

02:34:45 Jon Farmer: So we're not trying to completely raise and then redevelop the entire road allowance.

02:34:54 Jon Farmer: I'm not going to lie.

02:34:57 Jon Farmer: It's not going to be easy, but that's that's our objective.

02:35:05 Jon Farmer: The other part of that is that as a collector road, our standard is already to have sidewalks on either side, and are the bike lanes in the collector standard?

02:35:15 Jon Farmer: Oh, and bike lanes are optional in the collector standard.

02:35:19 Jon Farmer: So we're essentially meeting all of those things.

02:35:24 Jon Farmer: It was written that way, I believe, in the capital budget sheet, and it provides a huge benefit to the community.

02:35:35 Jon Farmer: So if council wishes us to go in a different direction, we can.

02:35:38 Jon Farmer: But it's not excessively more compared to simply installing the sidewalks on either side, replacing the road the way it is.

02:35:50 Jon Farmer: As I mentioned, it's already wider than it has to be.

02:35:55 Jon Farmer: Yeah.

02:35:57 Jon Farmer: Councillor Farmer.

02:35:57 Jon Farmer: Sorry.

02:35:58 Jon Farmer: This is my neighborhood.

02:35:58 Jon Farmer: I live on Twenty Th Street, so I drive this road every day.

02:36:09 Melanie Koepke: And on my way to council tonight, I counted forty-three hydro poles in that five-block radius.

02:36:18 Melanie Koepke: And there's a number of other things that that to entertain the widening or the bike lane and and whatever would have to be moved.

02:36:28 Melanie Koepke: I can't imagine what the cost consequence would be for that.

02:36:31 Melanie Koepke: My other question on the nineteenth block on the west side there are retaining walls and like there's a property that that has a big slope and and a retaining wall.

02:36:44 Melanie Koepke: Was there any consideration given to that at committee?

02:36:50 Jon Farmer: Through the mayor, actually, I suppose not so much at committee, but that is that is figuring significantly in our discussions and in the design process itself, because we again we have we have several options.

02:37:06 Jon Farmer: The option that we recommend is to assume that we have to put in another retaining wall, but we're going to see if there's any ability to negotiate with the property owner to see if we can grade it back.

02:37:22 Jon Farmer: But that's not a guaranteed.

02:37:24 Jon Farmer: We haven't mentioned that to anybody as far as the resident affected by that.

02:37:30 Jon Farmer: So that again, it's an option that we could pursue if it works out great.

02:37:38 Jon Farmer: If it doesn't, our fallback is a retaining wall.

02:37:41 Jon Farmer: There's already one there.

02:37:44 Melanie Koepke: So just so I'm clear, option one is basically status quo.

02:37:48 Melanie Koepke: So if we just went with option one, are we not just redoing everything as it stands today, and that retaining wall would stay, and we wouldn't have to touch it?

02:37:57 SPEAKER_117: Or does that not is that not the case?

02:38:05 Jon Farmer: Through the mayor, it's unlikely that we would be able to leave that retaining wall the way it is.

02:38:08 Jon Farmer: We'd probably have to rebuild it somehow.

02:38:11 Jon Farmer: The sight lines are not ideal at that intersection in the first place, and we would still need to try.

02:38:20 Jon Farmer: We still are trying to get the sidewalk away from the road.

02:38:24 Jon Farmer: That's a primary objective, also in our in our redesign to try to get the sidewalk away from the edge of the road because the monolithic sidewalks, like the curb face sidewalks, are the ones that are the biggest pain to try to keep maintained in the winter.

02:38:40 Jon Farmer: Every time the snow the snow plow road plow goes by, it fills the sidewalk.

02:38:45 Jon Farmer: In again, and our sidewalk plows can't keep up.

02:38:48 Jon Farmer: Can't keep up with it, so wherever we have the ability to, we're trying to separate the sidewalk from the road.

02:38:55 Jon Farmer: So we would still probably be looking at a retaining wall structure of some kind in that location, anyway.

02:39:08 Good: I might just add that we probably have a sidewalk there that exists now that's non-AODA compliant.

02:39:13 Good: So at the most, the new construction will be probably a little wider sidewalk just to become AODA compliant in that stretch.

02:39:21 Good: John, through the mayor.

02:39:27 Jon Farmer: If you didn't get a chance to watch the video of the meeting as well, there was a lengthy conversation and highlighting that those roads are weird widths anyway was I think a key piece to being able to make it safe.