Owen Sound Committee - Operations Meeting Transcript — July 23, 2026

00:00:11 Speaker 01: All right, welcome everyone.

00:00:12 Speaker 01: It's 5:30 p.m., and I'll call the meeting, July 23, 2026, for operations committee to order.

00:00:20 Speaker 01: At this point, we've got everyone in attendance this evening on committee.

00:00:34 Speaker 01: Absent, Councillor Hamley, and we're joined on the teleconference with Councillor Merton this evening.

00:00:48 Speaker 01: Just before I go around the room, I'll just note I erred last meeting in speaking about the time constraints.

00:01:00 Speaker 01: Individuals may speak to a motion once it's on the floor.

00:01:12 Speaker 01: Just so everyone is comforted and relaxed in terms of being able to speak: It's ten minutes in totality, and at any moment, Councillor or an individual is speaking.

00:01:41 Speaker 01: Or an individual was speaking, and I mentioned five minutes, and told them it was five minutes remaining of the ten.

00:02:29 Speaker 01: So, anytime you're speaking to an item, I just want you to know that you can be comforted and not race against the clock.

00:02:37 Speaker 02: So, ten minutes is what's afforded.

00:02:48 Speaker 03: I'll just start with Graham and go around the room.

00:03:09 Speaker 03: Just if you want to place yourself in the room for Member Anderson's benefit this evening, and just turn your microphone on so he can audio-orient or orient you in the room appropriately.

00:03:33 Speaker 03: Is that better?

00:03:43 Speaker 04: I'm Graham Jordan, public member.

00:03:46 Speaker 04: Michelle Hawkins, public member.

00:03:48 Speaker 04: Arlene Blueindo, public member.

00:03:57 Speaker 04: Scott Greig Wibelman.

00:03:59 Speaker 04: Alida Schrader, public member.

00:04:02 Speaker 04: John Farmer, councillor.

00:04:04 Speaker 04: Don Anderson, public member.

00:04:10 Speaker 04: Mason Bellamy, manager, Public Works and Engineering.

00:04:16 Speaker 04: Laura Widdifield, director, Public Works and Engineering.

00:04:21 Speaker 04: Heidi Jennen, Supervisor of Environmental Services.

00:04:25 Speaker 04: Okay, thank you.

00:04:32 Speaker 04: And next item before us this evening is call for additional business.

00:04:40 Speaker 04: Are there any items of additional business?

00:04:51 Speaker 04: I'm going to start with Christina, and I'll go to Councillor Farmer next.

00:05:02 Speaker 05: I just have one item respecting the upcoming municipal election.

00:05:10 Speaker 05: Councillor Farmer, thank you through the chair.

00:05:27 Speaker 05: I'll have two items: One speaking to recent court correspondence around traffic concerns at specific locations, and the second question for staff about Miford's recent change to their urban speed limits.

00:05:40 Speaker 05: Okay, thank you.

00:05:44 Speaker 05: Any others with items of additional business, Councillor Merton?

00:05:51 Speaker 05: I'll go to you.

00:05:54 Speaker 05: No, thank you.

00:05:56 Speaker 05: No additional items.

00:05:59 Speaker 05: Okay, thank you.

00:06:02 Speaker 05: Item three is declarations of interest.

00:06:09 Speaker 05: Are there any declarations to be made this evening, Member Hawkins?

00:06:17 Speaker 05: Yes, potential declaration of interest in terms of employment.

00:06:21 Speaker 05: Do you wish to expand on that?

00:06:26 Speaker 05: Just a specific item that might be on the agenda.

00:06:33 Speaker 05: Yes, Items 8B under transit.

00:06:36 Speaker 05: Okay, thank you.

00:06:47 Speaker 05: And I don't hear Councillor Merton yelling through the telephone, so we'll assume she hears nothing at this time.

00:06:55 Speaker 05: So, no yelling from here.

00:07:00 Speaker 05: Item four is confirmation of the minutes.

00:07:09 Speaker 05: These are going back to May, so these are for receipt.

00:07:17 Speaker 05: Any questions from members of committee on the minutes?

00:07:25 Speaker 05: Not seeing any, so I would entertain a motion to receive.

00:07:31 Speaker 05: Councillor Farmer has seconded it.

00:07:36 Speaker 05: All those in favour.

00:07:37 Speaker 05: In favour.

00:07:39 Speaker 05: In favour.

00:07:42 Speaker 05: Thank you.

00:07:44 Speaker 05: That's carried.

00:07:47 Speaker 05: Item five this evening: there are no deputations or presentations.

00:07:53 Speaker 05: Item six is public forum.

00:07:57 Speaker 05: There is an individual here.

00:08:00 Speaker 05: Are you wishing to speak during the public forum session?

00:08:06 Speaker 05: Please feel welcome.

00:08:11 Speaker 05: Provide your name and place of residence, or municipality of residence, and just turn on the button.

00:08:23 Speaker 05: Welcome.

00:08:26 Speaker 05: Hi everyone.

00:08:31 Speaker 05: My name is Jake Bausfield Bustido.

00:08:33 Speaker 05: I live downtown Owen Sound.

00:08:43 Speaker 06: I made a deputation to the committee last December, so I know most of you were there.

00:08:56 Speaker 06: But there are some new faces on the committee in that deputation.

00:09:08 Speaker 06: I started from this idea of default pedestrian crossing signal at the intersection of Second Avenue West and Ninth Street West.

00:09:18 Speaker 06: That was my launch point.

00:09:23 Speaker 06: I used the ten minutes to share some broader perspectives about pedestrian infrastructure in the city.

00:09:45 Speaker 04: While all of that still matters to me, I did just want to come back to the committee today to sort of resuscitate my original focused question regarding that pedestrian signal at that one specific intersection.

00:10:12 Speaker 07: To quickly reiterate my motivation for those of you who were not there:

00:10:34 Speaker 07: either me or a member of my family crosses that intersection east-west almost daily to go from our house on the east side to daycare on the west side.

00:10:58 Speaker 07: So, to cross east-west, you have to press a button to ask permission to use the street, whereas cars get a default signal.

00:11:09 Speaker 07: We frequently miss the button.

00:11:24 Speaker 07: It's kind of a daily joke: are we going to wait for a cycle or jaywalk with our toddler who is really quickly absorbing all of the rules of the road?

00:11:53 Speaker 07: So in short, my perspective is that these buttons make clear to users—pedestrians specifically—that we are always a secondary consideration to cars.

00:12:14 Speaker 07: I've gone back and forth a lot with the Director over the last while; she's been really generous with her time and information,

00:12:48 Speaker 07: but I did just want to kind of resurface it to the committee and distill it into key questions: what would it take to have a dedicated pedestrian signal at that intersection?

00:13:14 Speaker 07: And secondly, if there is any way to clarify the limitations—is it a technical problem or is it sort of an ongoing policy decision to put car flow above people flow?

00:13:36 Speaker 07: If I could, lastly, in the minute I have here, I just wanted to share an anecdote from today.

00:13:58 Speaker 03: Actually, it was kind of unexpected: I volunteered to chaperone my son's preschool class from Unity House School on the west side over to a circus performance at the Harmony Centre.

00:14:17 Speaker 03: So we were out there with eighteen little guys expanding their world and learning how to walk through downtown.

00:14:41 Speaker 06: We got to that intersection, and as seems to always be the case, our teacher sprinted for the signal but just missed it.

00:14:55 Speaker 06: Here we were, this big group; we waited a cycle, which they did wonderfully.

00:15:10 Speaker 06: But I just want to say: you know, I think these kids are impressionable, and they're out there learning how to move through our city.

00:15:24 Speaker 06: And I do think these kinds of things have an impact on their perception of how much they can use downtown and how welcome they are as pedestrians.

00:15:38 Speaker 06: So that's it for me tonight; I'm just going to stop.

00:15:53 Speaker 06: There was a question regarding replacement cycles or how staff respond to the equipment throughout the city.

00:16:06 Speaker 06: Through your chair, so staff have investigated this intersection based on the deputation we received back in December.

00:16:24 Speaker 07: We've had some similar correspondence with other residents about the operations of the pedestrian signals at that intersection.

00:16:37 Speaker 07: Our traffic technologist has been working on it.

00:16:53 Speaker 04: What we found is that, based on the age of the pedestrian signal software—just for easy figuring—that intersection is kind of an all-or-nothing situation.

00:17:16 Speaker 08: Unlike some of our newer intersections where we can program specifically to have a short auto-recall and then you press the button for a longer period, this one does not have that at this time;

00:17:44 Speaker 06: we're just working with our maintenance contractor on any improvements we can do.

00:17:53 Speaker 06: It's just a matter of time and budget as we try to make improvements throughout the city.

00:18:05 Speaker 06: Okay, thanks for that.

00:18:15 Speaker 09: We are now into Item seven: correspondence received for which notice is required.

00:18:32 Speaker 09: We have no items this evening, so we are at the first of three reports from staff, which is 8A-1 to Heidi regarding the landfill approval alternatives analysis.

00:18:46 Speaker 09: Welcome, Heidi.

00:18:48 Speaker 09: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

00:19:00 Speaker 09: At the February 7, 2023 special council meeting, Council directed staff to investigate the feasibility of reopening the Genoa Landfill for residential waste disposal purposes.

00:19:23 Speaker 01: To support this work, Council then approved $35,000 in the 2024 capital budget to undertake a landfill approval alternatives analysis.

00:19:53 Speaker 07: Staff have completed a high-level review of the requirements associated with reopening the landfill; the approval process and financial investment could be quite significant, with no guarantee of approval from MECP.

00:20:17 Speaker 07: Since Council provided this direction, the City has been working with the County's consultant on part of the regional waste management study,

00:20:42 Speaker 07: and the outcome of that study may influence future waste management planning and could include consideration of the Genoa site as part of the regional solution.

00:21:09 Speaker 07: As a result, staff are recommending that further investigation into reopening the landfill for household waste disposal be paused until the regional waste study has been completed.

00:21:24 Speaker 07: But in the interim,

00:21:47 Speaker 10: staff are recommending that the approved capital funding be redirected to investigate the feasibility of using a portion of the existing landfill footprint as Public Works excess soil storage and beneficial reuse site.

00:22:08 Speaker 10: So the recommendation is that the Operations Committee recommends that City Council direct staff to use the $35,000 approved in the 2024 Capital Budget to investigate the feasibility of using a section of the Genoa Landfill

00:22:24 Speaker 10: for excess soil storage.

00:22:26 Speaker 10: Thank you.

00:22:35 Speaker 10: I'm just going to go to the telephone first and entertain any questions from Councillor Burton.

00:22:42 Speaker 10: Should you have any, Councillor?

00:22:45 Speaker 10: Thank you for that.

00:22:52 Speaker 04: I'm happy to move the recommendation.

00:22:57 Speaker 04: My question is around the regional study.

00:23:04 Speaker 04: Is there a time frame when we might get more clear direction about what might be possible?

00:23:17 Speaker 07: What's the anticipated delivery time for any recommendations?

00:23:22 Speaker 07: I'll go to Heidi first to respond to that.

00:23:25 Speaker 07: Through you, Mr. Chair.

00:23:28 Speaker 07: I'm not sure.

00:23:42 Speaker 07: Are you meaning the recommendations for excess soil or the recommendations for the county regional study, the regional study, because obviously there's some alignment if we use part of a section of fill for soil.

00:24:01 Speaker 10: That's part of it.

00:24:08 Speaker 10: But how will we know what the complete picture for the possible use of that landscape might be?

00:24:17 Speaker 10: What timing are we looking at?

00:24:29 Speaker 10: Okay, so it sounds like County Council the report will be going to County Council early in 2027, but it could take and depending on the outcome of the report and what is decided,

00:24:46 Speaker 10: it could take several years before anything is implemented.

00:24:59 Speaker 03: But as for using the site for excess soils, that is something that the council consultant is aware of that we are considering.

00:25:06 Speaker 03: That okay, that helps to put it in the whole picture.

00:25:10 Speaker 03: Thank you.

00:25:13 Speaker 03: Okay, thank you, Councillor Farmer.

00:25:18 Speaker 03: Next, through the chair to staff.

00:25:28 Speaker 07: Maybe a technical question for those of us who don't work every day with excess soils.

00:25:44 Speaker 07: Is this a one-way kind of delivery where soils like excess soils are only ever deposited and never drawn back for fill?

00:26:04 Speaker 07: Or is this the kind of thing where we have more than just what the approximately 300 cubic meters of space would allow?

00:26:18 Speaker 07: If there's some deposits and withdrawals, or is it only a one-way throw at your dirt here?

00:26:26 Speaker 07: The right chair.

00:26:31 Speaker 07: So extract soil is not necessarily limited to a one-way transaction.

00:26:46 Speaker 07: If there's beneficial reuse, you can move soils around as long as you follow the new regs through the province.

00:26:59 Speaker 07: So the Genoa site would be used kind of as a two-prong approach for us.

00:27:23 Speaker 11: We have excess soil that would be deemed clean by the regulation, and it could be used for some grading purposes on the Genoa site, and that is temporary use beneficial use.

00:27:41 Speaker 11: We can grade it out there if we need it back within the city.

00:27:51 Speaker 11: There's no problem going out to go get it, bring it back in.

00:28:07 Speaker 11: We do have a volume of soil as we see at the report, that would be deemed like unclean or contaminated fill, and so it needs to be disposed of appropriately.

00:28:29 Speaker 11: Thus, the Genoa site being ideal, as it was an active landfill, it had appropriate environmental controls in it.

00:28:38 Speaker 11: So that soil would be deposited in perpetuity.

00:28:44 Speaker 11: It would not come back.

00:28:49 Speaker 11: And the alternative to that would be to ship it off to another licensed facility.

00:28:57 Speaker 11: Okay, thank you, Member Jordan.

00:28:59 Speaker 11: Just a couple points.

00:29:14 Speaker 03: Based on my legacy knowledge history of the Genoa site and the landfill approval process, I appreciate that the soil quality is going to be a consideration for anything that goes in there.

00:29:34 Speaker 04: Does the Genoa site still have a leachate collection system, and is it being shipped off for treatment?

00:29:46 Speaker 04: I'll go to Heidi for a response.

00:29:49 Speaker 04: There she's eagerly awaiting the opportunity.

00:29:57 Speaker 04: Through Mr. Chair, yes we still do collect leachate from the Genoa site.

00:30:17 Speaker 04: We were hoping that by now it would be reduced somewhat but the site is pretty sure that it's built on springs so we do generate a lot of leachate still.

00:30:37 Speaker 04: Thanks.

00:30:45 Speaker 04: I can just note too that for several years we've been trucking it to a site or location on Twenty Third Street.

00:31:00 Speaker 04: I think is where it's then placed into the sanitary and treated at the wastewater treatment plant.

00:31:15 Speaker 07: So that was a positive outcome of the upgrades at the wastewater treatment plant too.

00:31:21 Speaker 07: Back to you, Graham.

00:31:26 Speaker 07: So we're not shipping it to Meaford anymore.

00:31:35 Speaker 07: A crawler point to where to deposit excess soil without knowing anything about land ownership surrounding the current compost site.

00:31:52 Speaker 07: Is it feasible to consider expansion of that footprint to receive soil stockpiles in the future?

00:32:04 Speaker 04: Um there is a potential we could change that site to accept clean fill at our use.

00:32:19 Speaker 04: Clean fill is a minor consideration in this process.

00:32:35 Speaker 07: The big issue is the fill that is deemed unclean and it needs to go to a licensed facility.

00:32:49 Speaker 07: Genoa being one that we luckily have ownership of.

00:33:00 Speaker 07: So in other words, putting excess soil stockpiles at the compost site is not on the list of considerations.

00:33:13 Speaker 07: I'll go to Lara.

00:33:19 Speaker 07: Thank you through you Mr. Chair.

00:33:34 Speaker 07: Just because I've been involved with this just a little bit longer for context, the compost site doesn't have an environmental compliance approval whereas Genoa obviously does.

00:34:05 Speaker 07: So we're you know the MECP is aware of what we're doing and they're completely okay with what we're doing at the compost site but if we start to drastically expand or change the nature of

00:34:29 Speaker 07: the site then it would require us to seek a formal approval to recognize those uses.

00:34:55 Speaker 07: So that's a possibility but it's not one of our preferred options because that opens a can of worms and additional expenses that may not be necessary if we're looking at storing this soil at a

00:35:09 Speaker 10: site that already has an approval,

00:35:17 Speaker 10: and we're just essentially seeking a minor amendment or clarification on that approval to keep the fill there.

00:35:26 Speaker 10: Any other questions from committee?

00:35:32 Speaker 10: Not seeing any so the recommendation has been moved as presented in the report.

00:35:41 Speaker 10: All those in favor and that's carried unanimously.

00:35:44 Speaker 10: Thank you.

00:35:46 Speaker 10: Back down to Heidi.

00:35:58 Speaker 10: Then regarding the first of two transit reports which is the 45-minute service pilot results.

00:36:05 Speaker 07: Through you Mr. Chair.

00:36:20 Speaker 07: So the 45-minute pilot was introduced in February of 2026 in hopes to improve the schedule on-time performance and any missed runs for Owen Sound Transit, the conventional transit.

00:36:40 Speaker 07: So the initial results seemed promising.

00:36:45 Speaker 10: There was only one missed run in March.

00:36:50 Speaker 10: There were no missed runs in April.

00:36:54 Speaker 10: But as summer started creeping in so did increased missed runs.

00:37:09 Speaker 10: So the additional recovery time did provide some flexibility but it didn't consistently improve on-time performance or prevent delays from accumulating throughout the day, as we had initially hoped.

00:37:26 Speaker 01: So in June we did put out a survey.

00:37:37 Speaker 01: We had 89 respondents from riders and so we had various different ways that riders could respond.

00:38:00 Speaker 01: And of the 89 respondents 80 percent of them preferred the 30-minute schedule.

00:38:16 Speaker 01: So riders cited longer wait times reduced convenience and there was a lot of confusion with the afternoon schedule.

00:38:44 Speaker 11: So both staff and the transit contractor concluded that the pilot just didn't reach the long-term solution we were hoping for, and we are recommending that we go back to the 30-minute schedule.

00:39:04 Speaker 11: So the report did recommend recommends that we discontinue the six-month 45-minute service pilot and return to the 30-minute schedule effective August fourth.

00:39:15 Speaker 04: Thanks.

00:39:18 Speaker 04: Thank you Heidi to committee.

00:39:23 Speaker 04: I'll go to Member Anderson then Councillor Farmer next.

00:39:29 Speaker 04: Thank you Heidi for the report.

00:39:57 Speaker 04: I'm surprised and disappointed because I'm a regular transit user, and I adjusted my schedules to suit that 45-minute sort of range that we needed at times,

00:40:22 Speaker 04: and the general consensus of people riding it said "Yeah we know it's a change but we can live with it."

00:40:37 Speaker 11: And certainly it appeared that in your statistics at the beginning.

00:40:51 Speaker 11: But during summer for I've been here now 25 years using transit we know summer traffic makes slower bus schedules.

00:41:07 Speaker 11: We know there will be continual delays throughout June July and August.

00:41:16 Speaker 11: So I'm not sure that we're giving the 45-minute a fair shake.

00:41:40 Speaker 11: In that yes we know we adjust it but allowing for differences of our summer sort of delays could I perhaps propose that maybe we try again in fall to see if we can try another

00:42:04 Speaker 11: 45-minute schedule and adjust it again to give us a better run at those bus schedules?

00:42:13 Speaker 11: I'll go to staff for a response there.

00:42:29 Speaker 11: Probably some challenges in terms of having the trial then ending it and going back to the trial as opposed to maybe just working on continuing it.

00:42:43 Speaker 11: But Heidi take a swing at that.

00:42:47 Speaker 11: Three Mr. Chair.

00:42:52 Speaker 11: There did cause a lot of confusion.

00:43:00 Speaker 11: There were a lot angrier riders trying to get used to it.

00:43:06 Speaker 11: I think it would be difficult for them to.

00:43:12 Speaker 11: I think a lot of them are very hopeful that we go back to the 30 minutes.

00:43:22 Speaker 11: The contractors contractor feels that as well.

00:43:27 Speaker 11: So do drivers.

00:43:31 Speaker 11: So everybody's on board with the 30-minute one.

00:43:41 Speaker 04: I can reach out to the contractor and we can talk about it a little bit more.

00:44:06 Speaker 04: Doing it again in the fall, but it would cause a lot of confusion because people are used to the thirty-minute run, so doing it on and off may upset riders.

00:44:25 Speaker 09: Back to you, Donna.

00:44:32 Speaker 09: Just as a response, yeah, we've seen a lot of executions of different plans for our transit system,

00:44:46 Speaker 09: but that thirty-minute thing seems to be stuck in many of our community members' heads that we can't ride more than thirty minutes.

00:45:03 Speaker 09: And it's kind of disappointing because I said with the forty-five-minute schedule, it did make some improvements.

00:45:19 Speaker 09: I thought certainly for those of us that are regular transit users, it was nice to be more dependable.

00:45:36 Speaker 09: And sitting there and waiting another ten or fifty minutes to put the bus back on schedule again—anyway, that's my opinion.

00:45:55 Speaker 09: But I thought I would just ask if we might be able to do it.

00:46:05 Speaker 09: But as Heidi said, most of the riders are stuck to thirty minutes.

00:46:12 Speaker 09: There were some very valid concerns and comments expressed there.

00:46:19 Speaker 09: So thanks, Member Anderson, Councillor Farmer.

00:46:38 Speaker 09: Through the chair, anecdotally, someone told me years ago that the whole system would be a lot easier to keep on track and quicker if we didn't have buses having to cross Tenth Street;

00:47:03 Speaker 09: every bus needs to cross Tenth Street in the way that we do with the transit terminal in the current location.

00:47:19 Speaker 09: Where are we in the kind of life cycle of transit planning?

00:47:34 Speaker 09: If we were going to entertain a larger question, like is the bus station in the right place for the city and traffic flows that we have?

00:47:47 Speaker 09: Through you, Mr. Chair.

00:47:57 Speaker 09: So we did do a traffic study, route optimization study that would be in like 2023.

00:48:11 Speaker 09: I'm not sure if that discussion was had at that time, but I know probably ten years ago or fifteen years ago,

00:48:34 Speaker 09: some of you may be familiar with something where we looked at removing the transit terminal and just having a shelter somewhere, and that didn't go overly well with the public.

00:48:49 Speaker 09: But since then, I know we're always open to looking at new suggestions,

00:48:55 Speaker 09: and I think we do definitely need to look at the routes again so that we can get back on track and have better on-time performance.

00:49:10 Speaker 09: And maybe part of the reason is like Tenth Street.

00:49:21 Speaker 09: Another problem that we do have is the hospital.

00:49:35 Speaker 09: Like whatever run goes to the hospital, there's a lot of delays there because there's a lot of traffic going through the hospitals.

00:49:50 Speaker 09: So we have tried changing routes.

00:49:58 Speaker 09: We're looking at other ways that we can maybe reduce wait times or have better on-time performance,

00:50:17 Speaker 09: but I don't think we have anything in the budget right now for a study to look at that specifically; however,

00:50:37 Speaker 11: that could be something that we could consider because we do need to change up the routes for sure.

00:50:47 Speaker 11: Okay.

00:50:49 Speaker 11: Any further questions, comments?

00:50:55 Speaker 11: I'll look to you, Councillor Merton, on the phone.

00:51:05 Speaker 11: Do you have anything to ask at this point, Carol?

00:51:09 Speaker 11: Thank you for that, Chair.

00:51:16 Speaker 11: Yes, a couple of things.

00:51:24 Speaker 11: I do think that our traffic flow and transportation funding is always an issue,

00:51:42 Speaker 11: but I think this is something that would benefit from ensuring as we move forward into another budget year there's something in the budget to allow us to be looked at.

00:52:05 Speaker 11: More and more councillors and potentially committee members are hearing from individuals who are concerned, and I think it is timely.

00:52:18 Speaker 04: We are just on the verge of growing again, so the time would certainly be appropriate.

00:52:32 Speaker 04: So I would encourage that for staff to look at a possibility as you go through your budget process.

00:52:43 Speaker 04: It also matches with Vision Two Thousand and Fifty about being a city that moves.

00:52:53 Speaker 04: So I think there is an alignment, and the timing may be right.

00:53:17 Speaker 04: The other part, though, I wanted to thank Heidi very much, and all of the staff for taking a chance and starting a pilot that's brave,

00:53:39 Speaker 04: and then being able to evaluate it and come back and say you know what, we thought it would work but it didn't.

00:53:49 Speaker 03: And this is our plan.

00:54:02 Speaker 03: It's a really great example of staff being willing to work to try and make changes, and being able to admit when they're not working the way we hoped.

00:54:12 Speaker 03: This is our plan.

00:54:20 Speaker 03: But yes, we need to study it further.

00:54:35 Speaker 12: And I certainly think that as a committee, that I consider myself fortunate that you've done this.

00:54:53 Speaker 12: That you've circled around and done this, and I wanted to say thank you.

00:55:00 Speaker 09: Okay, thanks, Carol.

00:55:04 Speaker 09: I'm not seeing any further questions at this point.

00:55:10 Speaker 09: I'll go back to Councillor Farmer.

00:55:18 Speaker 12: Maybe at least to put the motion on the floor.

00:55:24 Speaker 12: Yeah, through the chair, I'm happy to move the recommendation.

00:55:45 Speaker 12: I like the thought that it's good that we're trying new things, and sometimes things don't work, and that's part of trying new things.

00:55:58 Speaker 09: Thank you very much.

00:56:06 Speaker 09: Just before I call the vote, I don't want to lose the opportunity here.

00:56:17 Speaker 09: Member Anderson has made good points, and Councillor Farmer too, on past practices and recommendations.

00:56:27 Speaker 09: There comes a time where we're growing a lot right now.

00:56:52 Speaker 09: We won't actually have a meeting yet; it does say in the next report how staff are engaging with the current provider on a service expansion or extension—not an expansion yet, but an extension.

00:57:19 Speaker 09: I'm just wondering if there's any opportunity at some point where we do need to look more fully at how we're providing the service now and being able to accommodate that growth because we know those

00:57:37 Speaker 09: apartment buildings are quickly going up on East Bayshore Road,

00:57:51 Speaker 04: and it's going to be very impactful to the service as we know it right now in terms of providing it.

00:58:02 Speaker 04: So, what are staff plans commencing?

00:58:08 Speaker 04: I guess at the end of August.

00:58:13 Speaker 04: Through you, Mr. Chair.

00:58:19 Speaker 04: Well, staff will be meeting with them in August of 2026,

00:58:36 Speaker 04: and I do know that they have some recommendations for us that they've seen within the last five years on how we can make changes to the fleet routes;

00:58:55 Speaker 09: like we did have an optimization study that Council left as status quo,

00:59:13 Speaker 09: but I think there is opportunity there that we can look at changing some of the routes and having some type of on-demand system.

00:59:33 Speaker 09: So any changes, of course, we would bring forward a report to committee or council.

00:59:44 Speaker 01: Okay, thanks for that.

00:59:57 Speaker 01: It's positive to hear that there's feedback coming back from the service provider that could inform our decision-making too.

01:00:09 Speaker 02: Not seeing any further questions at this point.

01:00:16 Speaker 02: All those in favor of that recommendation?

01:00:19 Speaker 02: Yes.

01:00:20 Speaker 02: Thank you.

01:00:32 Speaker 02: And we've got a second item regarding the Find My Bus app; pass it back to Heidi.

01:00:39 Speaker 02: Okay, through you, Mr. Chair.

01:00:50 Speaker 02: So as part of the 2024 budget, Council approved $22,500 for the development and publication of GTFS data for One Sound Transit.

01:01:09 Speaker 03: GTFS data is required to provide transit information to third-party applications such as the Transit App and Google Maps, which shows riders where the bus is.

01:01:30 Speaker 03: The buses; so the Transit app was successfully implemented in 2024, and it does provide customers with scheduled and real-time bus information—but only as long as the buses are equipped with GPS.

01:01:54 Speaker 03: So while the app has been well received, any spare buses that are being used aren't equipped with GPS systems.

01:02:09 Speaker 03: Customers can only receive scheduled arrival times instead of live tracking time, which can be off by up to ten minutes.

01:02:22 Speaker 03: Staff are currently exploring options to improve real-time tracking for the spare buses.

01:02:36 Speaker 03: One option is a device in a bag; so it's a GPS unit that drivers can plug into,

01:02:50 Speaker 03: similar to what used to be called a cigarette lighter—now often referred to as an auxiliary power outlet or 12-volt socket.

01:03:11 Speaker 03: There is approximately $10,000 remaining in the approved budget that we could use towards that.

01:03:21 Speaker 06: But like we discussed earlier, staff will be meeting with the contractor in August,

01:03:36 Speaker 06: and at that time there may be other solutions instead of using a device-in-a-bag concept—some type of GPS so live data is always available to riders.

01:03:58 Speaker 06: This report was presented for information purposes; if decisions are made at that meeting, I'll bring those forward or recommendations made at that meeting will be included in my next report.

01:04:09 Speaker 06: Thanks.

01:04:12 Speaker 06: Hey, thanks, Heidi.

01:04:13 Speaker 06: Member Anderson?

01:04:14 Speaker 06: Three, Mr. Chair.

01:04:23 Speaker 06: As a victim of buses not being tracked—having to sit there and stand there waiting for the bus while thinking "Okay,

01:04:48 Speaker 06: the system says it's going to be here in five minutes," only fifteen minutes later is it still not there—it can be troublesome when you are living by that schedule at times.

01:05:12 Speaker 03: I appreciate the efforts of staff who drive the buses to try and work around our different schedules with delays.

01:05:44 Speaker 03: However, Heidi, I'm curious about the portable system: often it's not just one bus going down; sometimes fairly regularly lately, two buses go down.

01:06:06 Speaker 09: So how would we choose which route with a substitute bus gets the GPS unit installed?

01:06:12 Speaker 09: Which route wouldn't get it?

01:06:27 Speaker 09: And then how are we going to impact passengers for those still standing there waiting—it says ten minutes but it's not showing up?

01:06:45 Speaker 09: Go ahead, Heidi.

01:06:51 Speaker 09: Three, Mr. Chair.

01:06:58 Speaker 09: Actually, this was a quote for three buses.

01:07:07 Speaker 09: So if there were three buses down, they would all have the tracking system in place.

01:07:18 Speaker 09: but like I said, maybe there is a different solution that the contractor will bring forward to us in August.

01:07:43 Speaker 09: But the intent is to have all buses at all times have the live tracking system, so that you know riders aren't dealing with waiting for fifteen minutes after the scheduled time.

01:07:53 Speaker 09: Donna.

01:07:57 Speaker 09: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

01:08:03 Speaker 09: I should say that yes, I am a regular transit user,

01:08:20 Speaker 03: and I am very appreciative of the system that I can pull up my cell phone and say "transit," and it tells me the bus is coming or where it's going and that sort of thing.

01:08:47 Speaker 03: So that has been a great asset for those of us that use the system who can't actually see the bus coming down the road.

01:08:57 Speaker 09: We can count on it appearing.

01:09:03 Speaker 09: So I really appreciate that.

01:09:11 Speaker 09: We appreciate that app being available right now.

01:09:15 Speaker 09: Okay.

01:09:16 Speaker 09: Thanks.

01:09:19 Speaker 09: Nice to hear.

01:09:21 Speaker 09: Further questions?

01:09:23 Speaker 09: Not seeing any from committee.

01:09:27 Speaker 09: I'll go to the phone, Councillor Merton.

01:09:31 Speaker 09: No further questions.

01:09:33 Speaker 09: Thank you.

01:09:36 Speaker 09: Okay.

01:09:45 Speaker 09: So this is a recommendation just to receive the report for information purposes.

01:09:53 Speaker 09: Do I have a mover?

01:09:57 Speaker 09: And Graham Jordan has so moved.

01:10:02 Speaker 09: No further questions.

01:10:04 Speaker 09: All those in favor?

01:10:07 Speaker 09: Yes, that's in favor.

01:10:13 Speaker 09: Thank you, and we'll provide a moment for Michelle to re-enter the room.

01:10:35 Speaker 09: Our member Hawkins: We are through our reports this evening, and under item nine, there are no matters postponed this evening.

01:10:50 Speaker 09: Item ten is motions for which notice was previously given; of which there is none.

01:10:56 Speaker 06: Oh, sorry.

01:11:00 Speaker 06: Oh no, that notice is...

01:11:01 Speaker 06: Oh yeah.

01:11:06 Speaker 06: At this time, I'll go back to the telephone for Councillor Merton.

01:11:11 Speaker 06: Thank you, Scott.

01:11:21 Speaker 06: Scott, do you have the information I had sent you for reading in response to this motion?

01:11:31 Speaker 06: This: To this motion, are you able to read that response for me?

01:11:47 Speaker 06: Well, I will open with reading the notice of motion first.

01:12:04 Speaker 08: Yeah, and just an explanation to committee: I had a procedure this morning on my eye, which means that I'm not allowed to use screen time.

01:12:22 Speaker 08: So my apologies for phone issues, but the chair has been willing to help me by reading.

01:12:28 Speaker 08: Certainly, my lapse—I should have read it at open session.

01:12:42 Speaker 08: So under item thirteen A, but this is actually under motions for which notice was previously given:

01:13:04 Speaker 08: motion that the operations committee recommends that city council direct staff to provide an update relating to the concerns and suggestions provided by citizens respecting the recent accident involving a four-year-old child to a future meeting

01:13:23 Speaker 08: of the operations committee.

01:13:28 Speaker 08: This was moved by Councillor Merton, seconded by Councillor Farmer.

01:13:36 Speaker 08: Seconded by Councillor Farmer, so it is on the table for discussion.

01:13:45 Speaker 08: If I can change screens and locate Carol's email or comments... certainly Councillor Merton?

01:13:55 Speaker 08: Well, I don't know; I don't want to overstep.

01:14:05 Speaker 03: I'll go back to you now that I've placed the motion in reading, so we're all aware of what's on the floor.

01:14:20 Speaker 03: Sure.

01:14:27 Speaker 03: So I raise this motion because communication to the public is critical, and being able to connect the dots and link things together really matters.

01:14:56 Speaker 03: And in this instance, although council has received at least two additional letters of concern about traffic in certain areas and wanting/ offering suggestions: So it came out of a one-time incident,

01:15:17 Speaker 09: but I have to say it's not just one incident.

01:15:18 Speaker 09: When we brought this up before, there was a police investigation and some interpretation that it couldn't be looked at until the police investigation was complete.

01:15:19 Speaker 09: I checked with Police Services; they said they don't routinely advise city staff when something is complete unless there's some significance beyond.

01:15:19 Speaker 09: So to me, that was a little bit of a gap in connecting together.

01:15:19 Speaker 09: Assumptions were made: Who connects with whom?

01:15:20 Speaker 09: And I think we just need to clarify—the police don't inform the staff if it's over.

01:15:20 Speaker 09: So the request was from the public to take a look at where opportunities for improvement exist, irrespective of whether it involved an infant like a four-year-old child or an adult fault.

01:15:20 Speaker 09: This is more than just saying, "Oh well, it was an incident involving human error."

01:15:20 Speaker 09: It puts there the opportunities to improve things like sight lines and a variety of crossing options, because no one wants an injury like that.

01:15:20 Speaker 09: But also, my concern is when the public reaches out—not only are they telling me that they're worried about an intersection, but they're offering legitimate ideas.

01:15:21 Speaker 09: I need to know how staff absorbs that information, who then goes to check it out for feasibility, and then how does the feedback communication loop come to committee and to the public?

01:15:21 Speaker 09: This may already be in place, but I'm not sure;

01:15:22 Speaker 09: I guess I would need to be sure there is a communication path specifically around traffic concerns and how that goes to the endpoint where both the committee, council,

01:15:22 Speaker 09: and the public are aware it's been acted upon.

01:15:22 Speaker 09: So I brought my request for the motion forward.

01:15:22 Speaker 09: It's a process issue.

01:15:22 Speaker 09: It's a communication issue.

01:15:23 Speaker 09: It may already be in place, but we need—I would appreciate just some assurance that at the end of the day, if the public gets back to me and says, "Well, you know,

01:15:23 Speaker 09: I put this in and I never heard back," then I can say there is a process in place, and this is where you can find it.

01:15:23 Speaker 09: I don't know, Scott.

01:15:23 Speaker 09: If there's anything more in the email I sent to you that I've missed, I'm going off by memory at the moment.

01:15:23 Speaker 09: But thank you for the opportunity to bring this forward.

01:15:23 Speaker 09: No thanks.

01:15:24 Speaker 09: Thank you.

01:15:24 Speaker 09: That's a good synopsis and recap; I think of your concerns.

01:15:25 Speaker 09: I'm going to go to staff and respond in terms of what is our framework in terms of hearing from residents, evaluating, and reporting back to residents—or closing that loop, so to speak.

01:15:25 Speaker 09: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

01:15:25 Speaker 09: So yes: In the case of an intersection, for example, I'll give two scenarios; they're a little bit different either way.

01:15:25 Speaker 09: In the case of an intersection or in the case of a speeding concern—either way—they get directed to our engineering technologist whose focus is on traffic and transportation.

01:15:26 Speaker 09: He will deploy some type of monitoring appropriate for the situation.

01:15:28 Speaker 09: If it's at an intersection that already has cameras, we may be able to take advantage of those:

01:15:29 Speaker 09: like whether they're the cameras mounted as part of traffic signals or if they're the security ones—I don't think we really have access to the security ones—so in this case I'm talking about like the Myovision

01:15:30 Speaker 09: cameras we use to control the traffic signals.

01:15:30 Speaker 09: If not, then we have some traffic counters that we can deploy: one will measure pedestrians as well as traffic, and others will measure traffic only.

01:15:30 Speaker 09: And so at the end of a particular timeline—whether that's three days or a week—it depends on the situation.

01:15:30 Speaker 09: Often, with a speeding concern, we'll leave the traffic counters up for up to a week in order to capture weekend and weekday traffic, or some timeframe thereof.

01:15:30 Speaker 09: That information will get processed so that it determines whether or not there's in fact a speeding concern.

01:15:30 Speaker 09: If it is the case of an intersection, we'd be looking at also collision data and stuff which we do get periodically from the police.

01:15:31 Speaker 09: As was said, we don't get copies of investigation reports.

01:15:31 Speaker 09: The police typically do not close the loop with us unless they determine that there is some particular issue that we need to address.

01:15:31 Speaker 09: For example, hedges might need to be cut back to improve sight lines, but we very rarely hear back from them.

01:15:32 Speaker 09: Usually, it's if a signpost or a light post or something gets knocked over through the course of a collision, that we find out about.

01:15:33 Speaker 09: We don't typically find out about the results of their analysis if charges were laid and whatnot.

01:15:34 Speaker 09: So, just going back to, for example, a speeding concern scenario, because those are the most frequent concerns that we get.

01:15:34 Speaker 09: If we determine that there is or is not a speeding concern, we will relay that information back to the inquirer.

01:15:35 Speaker 09: In the majority of the concerns that have been raised to us in the last, I'm going to say probably six to eight months, with the exception, I think, of Fourth Avenue West,

01:15:35 Speaker 09: there typically is not a speeding issue that we have found.

01:15:37 Speaker 09: There may be a few outliers like... you know, the 85th percentile is a threshold that's used in traffic engineering to essentially capture the majority of traffic,

01:15:39 Speaker 09: just as in a bell curve of an exam or something.

01:15:39 Speaker 09: You cut off the top and the bottom, and you end up with the majority of the travelers on that road.

01:15:39 Speaker 09: If you end up with fewer than... you know 15 percent above the speed limit, that is typically considered a reasonable amount.

01:15:40 Speaker 09: That being said, sometimes they can be extreme.

01:15:41 Speaker 09: You might only have one or two speeders during a particular twenty-four hour period, but maybe they're exceeding the speed limit by twenty kilometers an hour.

01:15:42 Speaker 09: That is a separate issue, and that becomes again sort of the needle in the haystack.

01:15:42 Speaker 09: From the information that we get from the traffic counters, we can give optimum enforcement periods to Oceanside Police Services.

01:15:42 Speaker 09: Whether they have the staffing available to do that in their workload on a weekly basis, I can't say.

01:15:43 Speaker 09: But if they do, then they at least have a time frame that they can target if they want to do some periodic enforcement.

01:15:43 Speaker 09: So I've covered how we loop back.

01:15:43 Speaker 09: We do get back to the person either way, whether there is validity to their concerns or not, so that they do get feedback.

01:15:44 Speaker 09: Sometimes it takes a little bit longer.

01:15:48 Speaker 09: We are working on making sure that we at least give them an acknowledgement so that they know that we're working on it.

01:15:49 Speaker 09: Excuse me.

01:15:49 Speaker 09: And then, I guess at the basis, I talk about this all the time.

01:15:50 Speaker 09: But we do have a traffic neighborhood traffic calming policy that we can refer people to that council has approved and adopted for how we go about this,

01:15:50 Speaker 09: and that is essentially how we proceed with these things.

01:15:51 Speaker 09: So far, we have not gotten to the point where anybody has asked to move forward with any traffic calming after they've received the information that we have given them,

01:15:51 Speaker 09: showing that there really isn't a significant speeding concern, but we do have a framework that we can exercise if that exists.

01:15:51 Speaker 09: If I've left anything out that somebody might want to know about, please let me know.

01:15:54 Speaker 09: Okay, thanks, Lara.

01:15:54 Speaker 09: Just before I look around the room, I'll just go back to Councillor Merton.

01:15:54 Speaker 09: Did you have anything further, Councillor?

01:15:54 Speaker 09: Some of... thank you, Chair.

01:15:54 Speaker 09: Some of the suggestions had talked about lines of sight, and so other than speeding, which you've addressed in your comments, but issues around lines of sight and... you know,

01:15:55 Speaker 09: some individuals have suggested use of pylons for crossing those sorts of things.

01:15:55 Speaker 09: So often we go to the speeding, but there were other... and there have been other suggestions that people have brought forward as well,

01:15:55 Speaker 09: which I think I sense is a community that really cares about safety for sure, and wants to engage in solution finding.

01:15:56 Speaker 09: It's very helpful, and I'm glad that people speak up about this.

01:15:57 Speaker 09: It's important.

01:15:57 Speaker 09: The other issue is the whole question of... you know, is it time to consider the option of how do we bring closer alignment between police, the public, and our city?

01:15:57 Speaker 09: You know, with traffic, would a traffic committee be of any help?

01:15:58 Speaker 09: Would there be any working force to address some of these recent concerns that have come forward?

01:15:58 Speaker 09: Because it seems that we're getting more of them lately, and as our city grows and more traffic flows, the assumption may be that this will add on to it as well.

01:15:58 Speaker 09: For those with historical knowledge, have we had a traffic committee or a traffic group in the past that involved public police and the City?

01:15:58 Speaker 09: I'm not seeing anyone in the room put their hands up who's certainly aware of such an instance.

01:15:58 Speaker 09: I would just take a second too to note that I'm not sure concerns have increased lately.

01:15:59 Speaker 09: You spoke; we've always been getting concerns from the public,

01:15:59 Speaker 09: but I can look to my right and I'm pretty certain Member Jordan was on the committee when we were hearing a lot of concerns on Sixth Avenue West and around the horseshoe.

01:16:00 Speaker 09: So, I would challenge the comment that we're getting more now.

01:16:00 Speaker 09: This is something that I'm certainly familiar with; it's ongoing, and that's why we had to create that policy, that traffic calming policy,

01:16:01 Speaker 09: a few years ago just to respond to it because it's impossible to keep up responding to each and every item on a site-specific or specific nature.

01:16:01 Speaker 09: There has to be some sort of frame of reference or guiding document for staff to refer to.

01:16:01 Speaker 09: Yes, but regarding traffic policy or committee, I'm not aware of any that have been here in the past.

01:16:01 Speaker 09: Anything further, Carol?

01:16:01 Speaker 09: Um, nothing further.

01:16:01 Speaker 09: Um... anything further?

01:16:02 Speaker 09: Is there anything further from the Committee?

01:16:02 Speaker 09: Yes, I'll go to Councillor Farmer next.

01:16:02 Speaker 09: Thanks, Councillor.

01:16:03 Speaker 09: Thanks.

01:16:03 Speaker 09: Thank you.

01:16:04 Speaker 09: Through the Chair, I won't be supporting the motion.

01:16:05 Speaker 09: I think that dedicating staff time specifically to updates around one specific incident is a really reactionary kind of approach.

01:16:05 Speaker 09: I would support something that brought us more of a system for like an annual report on... yeah, I don't know,

01:16:05 Speaker 09: an annual staff report that says where are the locations that we've had traffic complaints around and maps that out and says whether any substantial action has been taken,

01:16:05 Speaker 09: acknowledging that there is a regular workflow and dedicated staff people to look at these things specifically.

01:16:05 Speaker 09: So, I won't support this in this particular motion as my previous notice of motions will say.

01:16:06 Speaker 09: I'm down to have these conversations, but I don't think that this is the right approach, and this really just strikes me as reactionary.

01:16:06 Speaker 09: Okay, thank you Member Indo.

01:16:06 Speaker 09: Through you Chair.

01:16:06 Speaker 09: Just a quick question or clarification.

01:16:07 Speaker 09: So my understanding was that any citizen or resident of Owen Sound who had a concern or suggestion that went to City Hall were all gotten back to?

01:16:07 Speaker 09: Through the chair specifically about this type of topic?

01:16:08 Speaker 09: Yes, yes.

01:16:09 Speaker 09: Things outside of that scope I can't necessarily say for sure.

01:16:09 Speaker 09: But definitely on this we've been trying to get back to everybody.

01:16:09 Speaker 09: Like I said sometimes it takes a little while because we need to gather data but we've been getting back to them.

01:16:10 Speaker 09: Just a quick follow-up so if you had concerns or like numerous concerns on one, say intersection or traffic in Owen Sound was a lot of...

01:16:10 Speaker 09: So would that be discussed and maybe something done about it?

01:16:10 Speaker 09: If like is there a procedure where if you have so many [on] one area that something would be done?

01:16:11 Speaker 09: Thanks.

01:16:11 Speaker 09: Through the Chair to Member Indo.

01:16:11 Speaker 09: Yes provided that our traffic data backs that up yes we will then add it to the capital budget sort of synopsis of what the traffic calming policy says.

01:16:11 Speaker 09: We will budget and schedule it as soon as possible like within you know competing priorities if the neighborhood wants it to move faster than that then we could look at like a local improvement type

01:16:11 Speaker 09: process where they would essentially fund themselves but I'm sure I don't really need to go into that.

01:16:12 Speaker 09: That's unlikely to happen but you know if we got to that point we will always look at the least impactful things first so it's always we try to work with education enforcement and then engineering

01:16:12 Speaker 09: in that order obviously because construction is the most expensive part of those three things.

01:16:12 Speaker 09: Okay I'm not seeing any further questions Oh Member Shoer through the chair not so much a question but more of a note personal response to this emotional...

01:16:13 Speaker 09: Response to this motion is very similar to our Farmer where we just recently put through a motion for a working group looking at traffic incidences and council stated that it wasn't for them at this

01:16:13 Speaker 09: time and next council could revisit that.

01:16:14 Speaker 09: And I'm thinking something very similar to this situation:

01:16:14 Speaker 09: that A this should be expanded to not just include this one incident and B we should be waiting for next council since they're most likely to shut this down as well.

01:16:14 Speaker 09: What I can say further to that though is staff might wish to comment here but there is data that's kind of collected on an ongoing basis and I think scheduled in 2028 is transportation master

01:16:14 Speaker 09: plan update and that's a document a fulsome document that does capture a lot of these ongoing concerns too going concerns to it reports both.

01:16:14 Speaker 09: I know the county one that I'm most familiar with right now it reports on fatalities casualties on county roads and over a period of years.

01:16:15 Speaker 09: And I think the city document is similar to that it does gather a lot points of concern and then provide some analysis or recommendation on moving forward so I think you're kind of touching on

01:16:15 Speaker 09: that is an ongoing project but I don't know if staff want to add to that commentary or not through the chair yes especially like since we've been mentioning too that the next transportation master plan

01:16:16 Speaker 09: that we're planning is going to be a very comprehensive multimodal one as well.

01:16:16 Speaker 09: So it really should take into account you know pedestrian vehicular conflicts and point A to B trips like where are people trying to go from and to how do they get there so obviously like

01:16:23 Speaker 09: I said the conflict points all needs to sort of get put into the mix.

01:16:24 Speaker 09: Okay not seeing any further arms near arms in the air I'm going to call the question on the floor All those in favor Those opposed And that motion is defeated Thank you So we are

01:16:24 Speaker 09: to item 11 There's no correspondence Items being presented for information Discussion of additional business I will look to Christina first Thank You.

01:16:24 Speaker 09: I just have a quick reminder here that the upcoming municipal election is happening in October Nominations for people interested in running are open until August twenty-first at two p.m So just about four weeks from

01:16:25 Speaker 09: now Voting takes place October sixteenth to twenty-sixth and voters please check that you're on the voter list by visiting register2vote.ca by August 12th where you can register amend or confirm your information And there's always

01:16:26 Speaker 09: more information available at ownsoundvotes.ca Okay Councilor Farmer had two items Go ahead Thank You.

01:16:26 Speaker 09: Yes I will just add if you like the experience of this committee you'll love the experience of being on council So highly recommend So two items First we have building somewhat off of the notice

01:16:27 Speaker 09: of motion over the last few weeks we've gotten different pieces of correspondence as council or individual councillors with folks who have traffic concerns about specific places Just this week we got one with concerns about

01:16:27 Speaker 09: Fourth Ave West near Inglenook Daycare Center naming some concerns too with people coming down Alpha Street and then taking Thirteenth Street as a quicker way to get around to come over And I wanted to

01:16:27 Speaker 09: flag that I did respond to those folks I'll say with a link to the neighborhood traffic calming piece and said this first step maybe doesn't apply if it's a through traffic issue But wanted to

01:16:27 Speaker 09: highlight that location specifically as well as having gotten some correspondence from someone who lives on Fourth Avenue East by just south of Eighth Street highlighting that Fourth Avenue East and Eighth Street So to the

01:16:27 Speaker 09: east of the intersection of the lights by the maybe if you're thinking about where Safe and Sound is like those lights are the only lights until you get up the hill And that correspondence flagged

01:16:28 Speaker 09: that intersection and those kind of blocks as a difficult street to navigate or cross for folks headed to the park without a signalized intersection that doesn't require you either to go up the hill or.

01:16:28 Speaker 09: go back,

01:16:30 Speaker 09: and then certainly the email named that not everyone is comfortable taking their kids or sending their kids past and along safe and sound in the harbour and and the MPP's office and all those nefarious

01:16:31 Speaker 09: places.

01:16:31 Speaker 09: So I wanted to flag that as a piece of correspondence as well, and to the second point specifically,

01:16:31 Speaker 09: to ask what our process is to evaluate or include into a capital plan something like a stop control device, a pedestrian crossing, or something as simple as a good old pair of stop signs.

01:16:31 Speaker 09: We've we've already got two.

01:16:32 Speaker 09: We could make it a full four of a kind.

01:16:32 Speaker 09: Go to Mason.

01:16:33 Speaker 09: Through your chair, to Councilor Farmer.

01:16:33 Speaker 09: Appreciate the question.

01:16:34 Speaker 09: We have seen some correspondence about these two specific locations.

01:16:34 Speaker 09: I did not have time to talk to our traffic technologist until now; he has received these and a few other ones in mostly the last three six months.

01:16:35 Speaker 09: He has studied both of these locations: Fourth Avenue East and Fourth Avenue West—one being the shortcut, we'll call it, and the other being a request for signalization at Fourth Avenue East and Eighth Street East.

01:16:35 Speaker 09: At this time, based on his data collected, neither warrants a change, and so at this point staff would not recommend moving forward with any of those changes.

01:16:35 Speaker 09: As the Director had mentioned in her previous response, when we get data that supports changes, those are things we put into the capital plan as we move forward.

01:16:36 Speaker 09: But you know, the data's got to support that, so we're trying to make these traffic decisions very specific to warrant the necessary changes.

01:16:36 Speaker 09: The necessary changes—they are very expensive for signalization.

01:16:36 Speaker 09: You know, currently a signalized intersection is about three hundred fifty thousand dollars on average, and then ongoing maintenance, obviously.

01:16:36 Speaker 09: And we already have like a number in the city, and we're getting more here shortly.

01:16:37 Speaker 09: So I hope that answers your question.

01:16:37 Speaker 09: Councilor Pram?

01:16:37 Speaker 09: Through the chair, I appreciate that response.

01:16:38 Speaker 09: Two follow-up questions: one, an easier one—how much do stop signs cost, and maybe associated line painting?

01:16:41 Speaker 09: Can't have one without the other.

01:16:41 Speaker 09: The other question is how—if the engineer (I don't know what his name/title is), engineering or traffic technologist, presumably measuring traffic—I assume that primarily means cars.

01:16:41 Speaker 09: How when we get a request for something like having safer routes of travel for kids heading to a park, do our current traffic counting measures account for pedestrian traffic on a neighborhood scale?

01:16:41 Speaker 09: That's harder to maybe count than putting a rubber tube across the road and measuring pressure changes.

01:16:41 Speaker 09: Go to Laura.

01:16:42 Speaker 09: Through you, Mr. Chair, to Councilor Farmer: there is a specific process called a crossing warrant for identifying or calculating essentially whether a protected crossing is required for pedestrians, and that is based on pedestrian counts.

01:16:42 Speaker 09: So that is how that's done.

01:16:42 Speaker 09: We would also look to have it included in our overall traffic model once that proceeds as part of the Transportation Master Plan.

01:16:42 Speaker 09: But in the meantime, when we do get requests—for example, protected pedestrian crossings—that is the process we use.

01:16:42 Speaker 09: It's a specific outlined process either by the Transportation Association of Canada or the Ontario Traffic Manuals.

01:16:43 Speaker 09: An additional note to that: while some of those measures may seem like a no-brainer or like a positive way to help people be safer,

01:16:43 Speaker 09: sometimes adding those protections actually puts—especially youth and kids who aren't quite old enough to have developed—the sense for gaps and things like that—in more danger because it gives them a false sense of security.

01:16:44 Speaker 09: That if they push the button and the lights start flashing, they can just walk out into traffic.

01:16:44 Speaker 09: I've seen it too many times, even myself in downtown using our protected crossings;

01:16:45 Speaker 09: I have to essentially wait for a gap before I push the button because I cannot guarantee that the people driving will stop.

01:16:45 Speaker 09: So as a sort of conservative measure, if we don't say this is a safe place to cross, then people will have to use their discretion and identify that it is.

01:16:45 Speaker 09: They have to make sure that it is safe; they can't just—okay, there's a sign that says they're supposed to stop—I can just cross.

01:16:45 Speaker 09: Which is... which is—it's a factor that weighs heavily on my mind when we look at things like that.

01:16:46 Speaker 09: I appreciate that, and in some ways I think that answer maybe blends into my second point of additional business:

01:16:46 Speaker 09: local media outlets are reporting that Meaford has dropped the speed limit on its urban roads to forty kilometers an hour.

01:16:46 Speaker 09: That is a request we see kind of sprinkled through a number of correspondence pieces saying, "Hey, if a car's going slower when it hits you doesn't hurt as much."

01:16:46 Speaker 09: What would the process be for considering similar overall speed reductions in Owen Sound?

01:16:46 Speaker 09: Through the chair: politically Council can make that decision.

01:16:47 Speaker 09: That's where I go back to—there are engineering-based speed limits and there are politically based speed limits.

01:16:47 Speaker 09: And what Meaford has done... when you told me about that, that was the first I'd heard of it.

01:16:47 Speaker 09: So obviously I live under a rock.

01:16:48 Speaker 09: But other communities have done it; you can uniformly lower neighborhood speed limits.

01:16:48 Speaker 09: The problem therein though is that it doesn't affect the driver unless you enforce it or put in place measures to make people feel like it is not safe to drive any faster than that speed

01:16:49 Speaker 09: limit,

01:16:49 Speaker 09: as I've spoken about before.

01:16:49 Speaker 09: So you're either dealing with physical traffic calming or intensive enforcement.

01:16:49 Speaker 09: And so that's kind of... that is Council's decision to make.

01:16:49 Speaker 09: It's the Police Board's decision whether they want to staff that; but as far as whether it's a recommended engineering-based thing, it would come out of the Transportation Master Plan—that would be yes,

01:16:50 Speaker 09: we'd be starting before then because we have a lot of prep work to do before that actually gets off the ground.

01:16:50 Speaker 09: But the study I think is budgeted in 2028.

01:16:50 Speaker 09: Yes.

01:16:50 Speaker 09: Member Anderson—excuse me—through you Mr. Chair: just curious about member... can't remember John's last name?

01:16:50 Speaker 09: Oh my God, Farmer!

01:16:50 Speaker 09: Thank you, Member.

01:16:51 Speaker 09: Um, Councilor Farmer's question—I'm a little curious how much does a stop sign cost to put in place and put the lines down?

01:16:51 Speaker 09: I'll go to Mason.

01:16:51 Speaker 09: Through chair, going off best memory here: obviously depends on the size of a stop sign.

01:16:52 Speaker 09: So in Imperial we have 12 inch, 18 inch, two feet—or you know—30 centimeters up to 60 centimeters; obviously.

01:16:52 Speaker 09: And then the post has a cost to it whether we use wood, U-channel or square stock.

01:16:52 Speaker 09: But I think overall for a stop sign new—not including staff time—we're looking at $250 to $300.

01:16:52 Speaker 09: Line painting is—you know—thirty-five, forty foot bucks a meter for a white line, which is ongoing cost so yearly.

01:16:53 Speaker 09: So we do have to take those operational costs into account; not necessarily as simple though: just stop signs come with other ongoing maintenance and traffic considerations.

01:16:53 Speaker 09: So we just got to be mindful of that moving forward.

01:16:54 Speaker 09: Okay, Member Jordan.

01:16:54 Speaker 09: Thank you Chair.

01:16:54 Speaker 09: Looking at the correspondence that we received from Mr. Hoag—thank you Councilor Furrer—I certainly respect Mr. Hoag's concern for the safety of his children as we all would; I appreciate that and respect it.

01:16:55 Speaker 09: People driving fast down the hill—that is a plague throughout the city.

01:16:55 Speaker 09: I live on such a hill, and certain amongst our population like to boot going downhill because it makes them feel good or something—I don't know, I don't understand the mindset.

01:16:58 Speaker 09: And I've talked to the police about it and there's nothing they can do about it.

01:16:59 Speaker 09: And that's one of the things he raises: people coming down East Street Hill.

01:16:59 Speaker 09: The comment about the social structure of the block from Fourth to Third and the people who habituate that block is... little something we really shouldn't have to be concerned about.

01:16:59 Speaker 09: However, the point I want to get to is the concept of putting a stop signal of any sort at the bottom of a steep hill seems to me insane.

01:17:00 Speaker 09: I see examples at the bottom of St. Mary's Hill and those who know the history know how many times vehicles have crashed or even struck the building across the intersection—that's a historic fact, I know.

01:17:01 Speaker 09: Similarly coming down 10th Street from east to west there was a no left turn signal or sign put up a number of years ago and I expect that was because of incidents or potential for

01:17:01 Speaker 09: accidents at that corner with people trying to stop come to a stop at the bottom of the hill.

01:17:01 Speaker 09: And looking at winter conditions, you put anything asking people to stop at the bottom of a steep hill...

01:17:01 Speaker 09: I see, Mr. Farmer has got a bunch of fingers up.

01:17:02 Speaker 09: It does not seem to be a sensible decision to do that.

01:17:02 Speaker 09: That's my opinion.

01:17:02 Speaker 09: Thank you.

01:17:02 Speaker 09: I'll just go back to Councillor Farmer for response.

01:17:02 Speaker 09: Thank you.

01:17:03 Speaker 09: I will hold up evidence number nine: Ninth Street West, the steepest hill in this area.

01:17:03 Speaker 09: Am I right?

01:17:04 Speaker 09: It is the steepest in the city and also has a stop sign at the bottom at Third Avenue and Ninth Street.

01:17:05 Speaker 09: That seems to effectively dissuade folks from routinely going down the hill at full speed.

01:17:05 Speaker 09: So I will hold up that while putting a stop sign in the middle of a hill, I'll concede it's probably poorly conceived.

01:17:06 Speaker 09: Certainly, the intersection that Councillor Hogue has identified is much further away and on a much less steep hill than Third Avenue West from Ninth Street West.

01:17:06 Speaker 09: Let's go back to Laura.

01:17:06 Speaker 09: Through the chair: "I want to thank both Councillors Jordan for those comments."

01:17:07 Speaker 09: Actually, because both of them are clever and well stated,

01:17:07 Speaker 09: I would suggest that possibly the difference between those two particular segments of roads is that Ninth West has a stop sign at the top as well,

01:17:08 Speaker 09: so theoretically they shouldn't be able to get up to that hideous speed.

01:17:08 Speaker 09: However, that being said, having a stop sign at the top of a hill is also not good engineering practice either.

01:17:08 Speaker 09: Both of those are considered undesirable, I guess, if you want to put it that way.

01:17:08 Speaker 09: So, good points all around; it's not considered a great idea for the reasons stated.

01:17:09 Speaker 09: Okay, Councillor Jordan, you had your hand up.

01:17:09 Speaker 09: Through the chair: "It is Senator Clairfoe to Councillor Farmer."

01:17:09 Speaker 09: Ninth Avenue has half a block of flat ground from the bottom of the hill to that Stratford Light, so there is time to come to a stop before you hit that intersection.

01:17:10 Speaker 09: Whereas Eighth Street and Fourth Avenue, you're right at the toe of the slope, as is St. Mary's Hill.

01:17:10 Speaker 09: So Ninth is a little bit different from my...

01:17:10 Speaker 09: Yeah, Fourth is King Automotive but here and there; I think we've had a good conversation on the valid concerns.

01:17:10 Speaker 09: Certainly, we are all respecting that and thankful for the correspondence.

01:17:11 Speaker 09: Certainly, good to know that there's a process then staff screen that with.

01:17:11 Speaker 09: Certainly, I thought Ninth Street was a good comparison regarding the stop sign, whereas Eighth Street doesn't have it.

01:17:11 Speaker 09: So good to know that you've got a reference document there that you're applying.

01:17:11 Speaker 09: Not seeing any further questions; we are through additional business. Noises of motion: Are there any noises of motion this evening? Not seeing any. And item fourteen is adjourned. At six forty-seven, we are adjourned. Have a good part two of summer, everyone.